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Thread: Heavy bottom caps

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hidden Valley, AZ
    Posts
    737
    Good data, thanks Doug.

    In an allied vein;

    Here at the Musical Instrument Museum there is a calliope with real brass horns being played. I'm not just sure how the machine replicates chops to make it go, because it sounds a bit dull.

    However, that tech could be improved and used to excite a euph at any particular pitch to see just when & where any unwanted mechanical resonance occurs. This could lead to advantageous changes in design, allowing objective empirical observations when 'held' in a playing position without relying on human 'power' to do it.

    The engineer in me surfaces again...

    Dennis
    1966 Besson 181 highly modified New Standard
    1918 Hawkes & Son euph 3&1 original
    1917 Conn C/D/Eb mellophone original
    1915 York Bb tenorhorn original

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    838
    I ordered one from the UK last week...will share my impressions after I've had it on for a while.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meters)
    Yamaha 642-II Neo, Wedge 103E, SM3.5
    Yamaha 321, Yamaha 621 Baritone
    Conn 50H trombone
    Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    156
    Some time ago I added weight to the lower cap of the fourth valve of my Besson Prestige using a piece of a brass bar suitably worked on the lathe and glued with epoxy resin to the standard light cap. The resulting weight was 167 gr. against 32 of the original. Subsequently I did the same with the heavy cap ( the difference between the two is extremely small, so as not to feel any appreciable difference), bringing the weight from 40 to 230 gr. I had an improvement on the low range and a strengthening of the sound on the whole range compared to the original set up, while between that of 1167 gr. and that of 230 gr. I don't notice any noticeable differences. With this additional weight and the Lefeque plates the instrument has reached the remarkable weight of 5,665 Kg.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  4. #14
    My question is if the heavy cap does something useful screwed onto the 4th valve, why aren't euphoniums made/sold with this bit of engineering/manufacturing already in place? I suppose cost could be an answer, but it seems it would be pretty negligible if designed into the instrument. Would there then be people who bought this newly designed euphonium with the heavy cap and then decided it would be nice to have a light cap, so then the industry would be cranking out light caps to replace standard heavy caps. I know Besson does (or did) come with two sets of valve caps. One set for Mon-Wed, the other for Thur-Sat, and no caps for Sunday.

    Maybe I just don't get it.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  5. Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    My question is if the heavy cap does something useful screwed onto the 4th valve, why aren't euphoniums made/sold with this bit of engineering/manufacturing already in place?
    Some are. The Sterling Virtuoso has shipped with the heavy bottom cap on the 4th valve for some time. Some models of Geneva and Adams also ship with heavy bottom and top caps (Adams E2, Geneva GVL Cardinal). The Besson Prestige also comes with two sets of caps. I used the heavy caps on my 2051 and found the sound just a bit more gravitas (keep in min I had the small bell 2051). Heavy caps have been available as accessories on trumpets for years.

    So I would argue that variations in valve cap weight have been around for quite a while.

    Doug
    Last edited by daruby; 07-16-2020 at 06:07 PM.
    Sterling Virtuoso 1052HS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,297
    Hmm? My M5050 didn't come with heavy valve caps. I wonder if that was something that changed fairly recently. I got my M5050 about 7 or 8 years ago. That being said, I ordered a heavy 4th valve cap and I found out it didn't help any. Plus it got in the way of emptying my valve trough so don't use it.
    Last edited by RickF; 07-19-2020 at 03:46 PM.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    Russian Christmas Music (Alfred Reed)
    El Cumbanchero (Rafael Hernández) cell phone video

  7. I ws looking at the top and bottom caps in comparison with most "light" caps when I made the statement. I may have misremembered the valve mechanics of the 5050.
    Sterling Virtuoso 1052HS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    838
    Horns are made for a "typical" player and are not infinitely customizable off the showroom or factory floor to match individual preferences.

    Heavy caps may work for one player on one instrument, but may be disastrous for another player on the same instrument or for the same player on another instrument. It might work on the first valve for me and the third for you. That's also why we have such a variety of mouthpieces.

    I haven't received my heavy cap from Ray Farr yet, but I'm willing to give it a try, as I have with most "addons" except LeFreques (but I am willing to try golfer tape in the usual suspect locations).

    I was skeptical about the Wedge mouthpiece, but I have acclimated to it and use it most of the time.

    I'm more than willing to try an "addon" unless I find its premise totally illogical--even a horn with a fifth valve.

    Is the potential benefit of the heavy cap physical or mental? I don't care.

    So it's just like buying a suit off the rack--I need to have some alteration done so the suit fits me as best it can.

    I've bought a number of euphoniums off the rack and had some alterations done so every horn fit me as best it could.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 07-19-2020 at 03:08 PM.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meters)
    Yamaha 642-II Neo, Wedge 103E, SM3.5
    Yamaha 321, Yamaha 621 Baritone
    Conn 50H trombone
    Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Horns are made for a "typical" player and are not infinitely customizable to match individual preferences.

    Heavy caps may work for one player on one instrument, but may be disastrous for another player on the same instrument or for the same player on another instrument. That's also why we have such a variety of mouthpieces.

    I haven't received my heavy cap from Ray Farr yet, but I'm willing to give it a try, as I have with most "addons" except LeFreques (but I am willing to try golfer tape in the usual suspect locations).

    I was skeptical about the Wedge mouthpiece, but I have acclimated to it and use it most of the time.

    I'm more than willing to try an "addon" unless I find its premise totally illogical--even a horn with a fifth valve.

    Is the potential benefit of the heavy cap physical or mental? I don't care.

    So it's just like buying a suit off the rack--I need to have some alteration done so the suit fits me as best it can.

    I've bought a number of euphoniums off the rack and had some alterations done so every horn fit me as best it could.
    HI Jim,

    I just received my heavy cap for my 2900. One one of the issues that I had is that there is the heavy cap fits differently than the regular Willson cap, so I so my normal spring is too short.

    Mike

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    838
    Mike,
    I've heard that from Chrissie with the cap for her Neo.
    I'm not really feeling that, because the threads on the heavy cap (mine came yesterday)
    are so much deeper. I've tried it on all four of the valves on my Neo and don't notice any difference.
    In my case on the Neo, the cap LOOKS deeper but the length of the threads when fully screwed in
    creates a situation similar to the original on all four valves.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 07-19-2020 at 03:19 PM.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meters)
    Yamaha 642-II Neo, Wedge 103E, SM3.5
    Yamaha 321, Yamaha 621 Baritone
    Conn 50H trombone
    Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

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