Heavy bottom caps

[RickF]

Hmm? My M5050 didn't come with heavy valve caps. I wonder if that was something that changed fairly recently. I got my M5050 about 7 or 8 years ago. That being said, I ordered a heavy 4th valve cap and I found out it didn't help any. Plus it got in the way of emptying my valve trough so don't use it.

[daruby]

I ws looking at the top and bottom caps in comparison with most "light" caps when I made the statement. I may have misremembered the valve mechanics of the 5050.

[Snorlax]

Horns are made for a "typical" player and are not infinitely customizable off the showroom or factory floor to match individual preferences.

Heavy caps may work for one player on one instrument, but may be disastrous for another player on the same instrument or for the same player on another instrument. It might work on the first valve for me and the third for you. That's also why we have such a variety of mouthpieces.

I haven't received my heavy cap from Ray Farr yet, but I'm willing to give it a try, as I have with most "addons" except LeFreques (but I am willing to try golfer tape in the usual suspect locations).

I was skeptical about the Wedge mouthpiece, but I have acclimated to it and use it most of the time.

I'm more than willing to try an "addon" unless I find its premise totally illogical--even a horn with a fifth valve.

Is the potential benefit of the heavy cap physical or mental? I don't care.

So it's just like buying a suit off the rack--I need to have some alteration done so the suit fits me as best it can.

I've bought a number of euphoniums off the rack and had some alterations done so every horn fit me as best it could.

[mbrooke]

Horns are made for a "typical" player and are not infinitely customizable to match individual preferences.

Heavy caps may work for one player on one instrument, but may be disastrous for another player on the same instrument or for the same player on another instrument. That's also why we have such a variety of mouthpieces.

I haven't received my heavy cap from Ray Farr yet, but I'm willing to give it a try, as I have with most "addons" except LeFreques (but I am willing to try golfer tape in the usual suspect locations).

I was skeptical about the Wedge mouthpiece, but I have acclimated to it and use it most of the time.

I'm more than willing to try an "addon" unless I find its premise totally illogical--even a horn with a fifth valve.

Is the potential benefit of the heavy cap physical or mental? I don't care.

So it's just like buying a suit off the rack--I need to have some alteration done so the suit fits me as best it can.

I've bought a number of euphoniums off the rack and had some alterations done so every horn fit me as best it could.

HI Jim,

I just received my heavy cap for my 2900. One one of the issues that I had is that there is the heavy cap fits differently than the regular Willson cap, so I so my normal spring is too short.

Mike

[Snorlax]

Mike,
I've heard that from Chrissie with the cap for her Neo.
I'm not really feeling that, because the threads on the heavy cap (mine came yesterday)
are so much deeper. I've tried it on all four of the valves on my Neo and don't notice any difference.
In my case on the Neo, the cap LOOKS deeper but the length of the threads when fully screwed in
creates a situation similar to the original on all four valves.

[ChristianeSparkle]

I have the same experience, Mike. AS per the photo below, the pit of the cap is much lower than the normal cap, making the spring sit lower. I've approached Chris of Heavy Bottom Caps and his suggestion was to stretch out the spring until I get the tension I want. But that is kind of odd to me?

I had Mead spring (light) #4 on my 4th valve and it felt a bit light. On the Neo, the Yamaha spring is shorter, so that's even worse. My workaround was using normal Mead Spring #1, not the best work around but I will give it a spin and see.

I am curious if we just got a different cap than Jim since he doesn't have the issue despite using a Neo too? The thread is definitely deeper than the normal cap and I've screwed in fully, unless I am missing something.

Mike,
I've heard that from Chrissie with the cap for her Neo.
I'm not really feeling that, because the threads on the heavy cap (mine came yesterday)
are so much deeper. I've tried it on all four of the valves on my Neo and don't notice any difference.
In my case on the Neo, the cap LOOKS deeper but the length of the threads when fully screwed in
creates a situation similar to the original on all four valves.

[mbrooke]

I have the same experience, Mike. AS per the photo below, the pit of the cap is much lower than the normal cap, making the spring sit lower. I've approached Chris of Heavy Bottom Caps and his suggestion was to stretch out the spring until I get the tension I want. But that is kind of odd to me?

I had Mead spring (light) #4 on my 4th valve and it felt a bit light. On the Neo, the Yamaha spring is shorter, so that's even worse. My workaround was using normal Mead Spring #1, not the best work around but I will give it a spin and see.

I am curious if we just got a different cap than Jim since he doesn't have the issue despite using a Neo too? The thread is definitely deeper than the normal cap and I've screwed in fully, unless I am missing something.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7823[/ATTACH]

This is the response I got from Chris:

Dear Michael,

Thank you for your e-mail.


We designed the HBC inner thread depth with an extra 8mm to give flexibility regarding the spring strength individual players like, enabling the spring to to extended to suit.


It's an extra option and all you need to do is pull the spring gently holding each end until you find the spring strength that suits you.

Hope this helps.


Best regards,
Chris


_______

This really doesn't seem like a good idea. Why not just make the cap fit like the normal cap? Most players are going to be using springs that they like. Why would you want to use a different springs or stretch your existing spring just to use a heavy cap?


Mike

[tonewheeler]

Hmm? My M5050 didn't come with heavy valve caps. I wonder if that was something that changed fairly recently. I got my M5050 about 7 or 8 years ago. That being said, I ordered a heavy 4th valve cap and I found out it didn't help any. Plus it got in the way of emptying my valve trough so don't use it.

My 5050 is such a beast in the weight category, I don't want to add ANY more weight to it. Also, I'm sure in the manufacturing process there is a point of diminishing returns in adding it to the horn as a standard, thus increasing the cost.

[ChristianeSparkle]

_______

This really doesn't seem like a good idea. Why not just make the cap fit like the normal cap? Most players are going to be using springs that they like. Why would you want to use a different springs or stretch your existing spring just to use a heavy cap?


Mike

Indeed, I wonder why. Like, I wouldn't want to keep paying for another set of normal Steven mead Springs just to use it for 4th valve. Definitely does not seem like a good idea at all to do this? they could probably have offered it as an option instead or something. I know people do stretch out their springs, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have it to work?

[TheJH]

Especially with how tricky it can be to get the spring length right when stretching them out. It's very easy to make a mistake and stretch them out too much and then you have a problem.

[mbrooke]

I received an email from Chris:
-------

Dear Mike,


Thanks for your e-mail.


When we researched the HBC project with Euphonium players, some said they would like the option to slightly reduce the strength of the 4th spring and have the ability to adjust by either using the HBC with the 10mm extra depth as it stands, or slowly stretching the spring until the desired resistance was achieved. Of course it's not really possible to weaken the spring as it stands with a normal bottom caps so we seized the opportunity when making the HBCs to provide this option.


If you'd prefer a bespoke 10mm spacer to fit in the bottom of the HBC we'd happily do that for you without cost.


All the best,


Chris
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I've switched back and forth between Yamaha euph springs and light Mead springs. A Yamaha spring is much to short in the fourth valve with the heavy weight cap. The Mead spring works. I may get the spacer and see how that works.

Mike

[RickF]

Seems to me you could add a rubber washer (or two or three) to allow your existing spring to work without stretching it. Years ago I added a rubber washer to the bottom cap of my 4th valve... not to take up space but to quiet down the action. I went to Ace Hardware where they had drawers of different sized rubber washers with hole in its center. Pretty cheap fix.

[daruby]

Ace Hardware is my favorite misc. fixit place for things like this.

[John Morgan]

Seems to me you could add a rubber washer (or two or three) to allow your existing spring to work without stretching it. Years ago I added a rubber washer to the bottom cap of my 4th valve... not to take up space but to quiet down the action. I went to Ace Hardware where they had drawers of different sized rubber washers with hole in its center. Pretty cheap fix.

I like Rick's approach with adding a couple or three washers. I am rusty on Physics and Hooke's Law regarding springs, but once you stretch out a spring to the point of deforming it (which you have to do to make it longer), I'm not sure what you have done to the spring, i.e. making it stronger or weaker, but in any event, you have probably changed the force required to push down a valve and the resulting force required to push back the valve. Might not be a big deal, depending on how much you have to stretch out the spring, but keeping the spring as it was and adding filler gets my vote. That is, if I were to buy one of these heavy bottom caps.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Thank you Rick!! That's a very good idea! Will definitely drop by Ace Hardware when I have the chance!