Wessex Sinfonico?

[TheJH]

For the Metric users under us, that would be roughly 4.2kg

[EuphMan84]

I'm at a bit of a crossroads here & could use some community advice.
I recently play tested both the Dolce & the Sinfonico.
While I agree that the Sinfonico overall had a better tone & flexibility in the upper & lower registers, it played about 20 - 30 cent sharp with the tuning slide all the way out. It's also on backorder until November & my other horn just sold.
The Dolce played within the normal range of intonation consistent with most other horns I've played & wasn't too far off with regards to the tone & range. The Dolce also has the 4th valve lock & can support a grime gutter, neither of which are currently available in the Sinfonico.
Esthetically speaking, I'm not really a fan of the copper plating. I believe it would clash if I opted for a gold mouthpiece. I wish Wessex had other plating options for the Sinfonico.
Given the sharpness issue, I'm thinking I'll need to also buy a protective guard so no slide grease comes into contact with my clothes.
All that said, with the higher price, the November delivery, the sharpness & potential added costs of accessories, I'm really leaning towards buying the Dolce.
I know lot of advice in the forum says that the sound you produce should be a major factor when purchasing a new horn, so does that outweigh all of the rest?

[Shawn]

I'm hanging in for a new tuning slide to see if it helps. It should, because, physics, but let's see.
And I want it to work, and I'm into Wessex for the full price of the horn and Canadian Customs for $464 besides (with no surefire way to get that duty back).

But if I was buying a euph from zero today, no way I buy the Sinfonico until the tuning issue gets sorted out . Just no way.
I know they weren't able to supervise production at the factory because of Covid, but given Wessex' reputation I'm surprised this batch of instruments passed QA.

If you want a Dolce, giddy-up, but Sinfonico shouldn't be part of the discussion until the tuning gets right.

[davewerden]

Unless the overall length of the bugle has changed since the prototype I tested last year, I still think players who find it sharp MIGHT be overblowing. When I tested I didn't make a note about having to pull the tuning slide way out, and here is the chart I got from the prototype, FWIW:

[guidocorona]

Hello Euphman, I would go a little further concerning the job that a musical instrument is supposed to do.... Yes, at a basic level, its job is to deliver sound, so we could simply say... Which horn does it "better"?

But I would go a little further, as in... Which horn lets me express my musical thought to a deeper degree, and has the greater ability of letting me yield "magic"?

Which brings me to a further question.... Which horn can b a longer term choice, and can let me grow further in my musicianship?

The tendency of Sinfonico of being sharp is a short term issue, and might be entirely moot by the time you receive the horn. More than likely you might be able to ask Wessex a second larger slide at no additional cost... Have you contacted James Garney about this?

Furthermore, Sinfonico being handmade by artisans rather than manufactured in an assembly line will probably yield better overall quality control and durability of fit&finish.

Is your preference for gold plated MPs based on their esthetics, or their mechanical properties? BTW, in jewelry, contrasting bands of copper and gold are deemed to be pleasing rather than clashing.

Of course, budgeting considerations might very well override all the above, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

Regards, Guido

[John Morgan]

I am a little concerned about the Sinfonico as well. I have owned a Dolce for several years, and it is a very good horn and has served me well when I used it full time for about 6 months, and now when I use it occasionally throughout the year. I played the Sinfonico prototype at ITEC in 2019 and thought it was a good horn, but you can't really get a total feel and accurate judgment for a horn in a room with others blowing their brains out. And not having perfect pitch, I could not tell about the horn being overall sharp or flat or neither.

To me, if the horn is that sharp, and that sharp for everyone (every sample of the horn), that is a problem that would seem to stem from not having the correct overall dimensions throughout the horn, not just a tuning slide length issue. If you have to pull the main tuning slide all the way out and it is still not in tune, something was wrong with the overall scale design of the horn it seems. And as you play a horn, it goes sharper, so the problem is even greater when fully warmed up. I suppose a longer tuning slide might solve the problem, but I do wonder if the horn has the proper scale dimensions throughout the horn.

If, as EuphMan84 said above, the horn is 20-30 cents sharp even with the main tuning slide all the way out, that is an incredibly sharp horn. As much as I like Wessex overall, I agree with Shawn above - I would not buy a Sinfonico until this issue is totally resolved, and not necessarily by just tossing in another tuning slide. Someone may convince me that a longer tuning slide could be the answer, but I am not yet convinced.

[Jonathantuba]

In response to the points made above on the Sinfonico, I can give you the following feedback;

1) The tuning of the EP600 has not changed since Dave Werden did his intonation test at ITEC.

2) I although a tuba player, did play test an EP600 from the most recent batch before shipping specifically to check tuning and intonation. I made sure I used the 4Y mouthpiece as supplied. For me the euphonium played in tune to A = 440 Hz with main tuning slide out about 1 inch. But that was in a warm warehouse, so I thought quite acceptable. The warehouse manager, a trombone player play tested the remainder of the batch and he did not report any tuning issues. Wessex would not have shipped out the euphonium if they would not play in tune as part of our QA.

3) Longer main tuning slides have been ordered from factory to supply anyone who has already receive an EP600 and finds it plays sharp for them (email Dolce@wessex-tubas.com to receive).

4) All future EP600 manufactured will be supplied with a second 30mm (1 1/4 inch) longer tuning slide. This is something Wessex are starting to do for all horns with shorter main tuning slides, as we know pitch does vary by player - and we want you satisfied when the horn is first received.

5) A 4th valve catch has been added to specifications for future EP600 manufactured due to customer request (we do take note of what people want).

6) If the default silver/copper finish does not suit, then the euphonium can be special ordered in the desired finish - but be aware delivery will take 5 to 8 months depending where we are in the production cycle.

7) I will look if nipples for a water gutter can be added - and if an existing gutter would fit in that case. I will need to investigate.

Hope that is helpful!

[John Morgan]

You sure can't fault Wessex and Jonathan for their extraordinary customer care and attention to customer concerns. Wish all horn makers were as attentive and concerned with their product and customers as Wessex obviously is. Hopefully the issue (and I must admit I have not had the luxury of testing the tuning) will find a quick resolution.

[Fujiifilm]

The accounts of the Sinfonico playing very sharp are interesting to hear. I didn't get to play the prototype at ITEC, but I did get some time on what I think may have been a preproduction model during a visit by Wessex to my university last fall. I was able to play it alongside my current euph, a Willson 2900 both in the large rehearsal space the instruments were displayed in, and my teacher's studio. (used a Wick Heritage 4AL on the Wessex, it was the only large shank mouthpiece I had at the time, and was close to what I was using on the euph I had prior to the Willson)

I honestly don't remember it playing overall more sharp than my Willson or other euphs I have tried, it seemed to be fairly inline with the intonation chart Mr. Werden posted above.

I don't mean at all to discredit what the users who have more recent experience with the Sinfonico are reporting in regards to intonation. I'm genuinely curious as to what might be causing this issue that sounds like it's consistent across the batch of instruments.

[EuphMan84]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.
I think right now the Dolce is the better option for me.
It's a market proven model & its consistency over time outweighs the potential "magic" I could make on the Sinfonico.
If I out grow the Dolce, I can revisit the Sinfonico at that time.
I'm certain the resell value will hold pretty firm as a testament to Wessex's reputation for quality & service, as John mentioned above.
I'm confident Jonathan will get this all worked out & come out even better than before on the other side of it. My timing just doesn't align well at the present time.
Thanks again for your help!

[guidocorona]

Iam curious about the mouthpieces being used by those who are experiencing a pitch higher than "normal" on Sinfonico....
Are you experiencing the issue with the Wessex-supplied 4Y, or with some other MP instead.... Or does the issue persist no matter the mouthpiece?

Regards, Guido

[jakewillis]

Iam curious about the mouthpieces being used by those who are experiencing a pitch higher than "normal" on Sinfonico....
Are you experiencing the issue with the Wessex-supplied 4Y, or with some other MP instead.... Or does the issue persist no matter the mouthpiece?

Regards, Guido

My son uses a Doug Elliot N104 rim on a Euph Jstar cup with a J9 shank.

For the record, he has had far fewer intonation issues lately. The Sinfonico is a much better instrument than the Dolce, in my and his opinions.

[EuphMan84]

For my own experience, I brought my Denis Wick SM4 & used it on both the Dolce & Sinfonico.

[guidocorona]

I'd be curious to know if you experience the same pitch behavior when using the Wessex-supplied 4Y.

Guido

[Dom]

I would mostly be worried since I use a really small mp, the SM6. So I think it is pretty much guaranteed that it will be sharp. Though, Im not so sure since my largest mouthpiece, my Kosikup, played really sharp and the main tuning slide had to be pulled out a ton. So it may not be a problem. Ill have to wait and see!