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Last edited by Snorlax; 07-15-2020, 12:07 PM.Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
www.soundcloud.com/jweuph
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Originally posted by Fujiifilm View PostRegarding the 5th-valve add on for the Yamaha 321, apparently they were made by Kanstul for Stauffer Brass. TheHornGuys still has the listing and description (with photos) on their website for archival purposes:
https://www.hornguys.com/collections...-321-euphonium
Interestingly, they note that Yamaha several decades ago (before they had started producing compensating euphs) had produced a similar 5th-valve add on.
This rotor tunes to a flat whole step. That means the low Eb is right in tune played as 4-5. You can also think of the "flat whole step" tuning as being a whole step in F, just like most tuba fifth rotors. The rotor is easily removable so you can return to a four valve instrument when you prefer less weight. The valve lets you play the entire chromatic scale down into the pedal note range, using fingering patterns that are the same as most any five valve tuba. Here are the fingerings for the notes below the bass clef with five valves:
- F 4
- E 2-4
- Eb 4-5
- D 2-3-4
- Db 1-3-4 or 3-4-5
- C 2-3-4-5
- B 1-2-3-4-5
- Bb 0
In any case, it isn't worth $675 to me. ;-)Last edited by Snorlax; 07-15-2020, 11:35 AM.Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
www.soundcloud.com/jweuph
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Originally posted by Snorlax View Post*I wonder if manufacturers keep to the same basic designs due to an orthodoxy among euphonium players?
Little new gets developed unless someone conceives something totally out of the box, and can get a big name to be willing to try it and promote it. Innovation can be a risky business.
- SaraLast edited by Sara Hood; 07-15-2020, 03:00 PM.Baritone - 3 Valve, Compensating, JinBao JBBR1240
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i recall Project Euphonium promoting a euph that had some interesting bits. i think the air goes into 3rd valve first or something, reducing the bends that usual euph has. But it didnt caught on and it was discontinued. it was touted as an innovation before production stopped.Last edited by ChristianeSparkle; 07-15-2020, 08:16 PM."Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"
Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL
https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/
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For Snorlax
The King 2280 would let you switch the tuning slides on the fourth valve to tune in at Eb. This gives the chromatic scale down to Bb.
From https://www.hornguys.com/products/ki...oist-euphonium
"Fourth valve in Eb: If you reverse the fourth slides and pull them to their extremes, you can tune the fourth valve to Eb by itself.
F 1-3T
E 1-2-3T
Eb 4
D 2-4
Db 1-2-4
C 2-3-4
B 1-2-3-4
The low notes all settle in pretty well without any trigger added. And let me say this: Low Eb played on one .600" valve is completely captivating. I want to play it again and again. Loud. This pattern makes a bit more sense to me than the above Fourth_in_E pattern, but of course, your mileage may vary. The drawbacks still include having to play 1-3 and 1-2-3 with that fourth piston button sort of in the way, and also not being able to set your horn down on the bell due to the extended fourth slide."
That page has lots of interesting information. The YEP-321 used to have an extended third valve slide. So maybe instead of a 5th valve you could have an extended 4th valve slide? Just an idea.Cerveny BBb Kaiser Tuba
__________________________
“Don’t only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.”
― Ludwig van Beethoven
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Originally posted by Sara Hood View PostMy money is on "YES!" Over the last year or two I have been casually looking into the physics of why horns sound the way they do, how they are made, etc. And basically all my questions come back to an answer of, "Because that is how it is done. It has been that way since back in the day, and nothing since works any better." Manufacturers definitely have an orthodoxy of how to make horns that sell. Players have an orthodoxy for what makes a good horn when they go shopping. The two reinforce each other's assumptions, because that is all that is available in the marketplace. This is true for more than just the euphonium.
Little new gets developed unless someone conceives something totally out of the box, and can get a big name to be willing to try it and promote it. Innovation can be a risky business.
- SaraJohn 3:16
Conn Victor 5H Trombone
Yamaha 354 Trombone
Conn 15I Euphonium
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Originally posted by ChristianeSparkle View Posti recall Project Euphonium promoting a euph that had some interesting bits. i think the air goes into 3rd valve first or something, reducing the bends that usual euph hasb didnt caught on and it was discontinued. it was touted as an innovation before production stopped.Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
www.soundcloud.com/jweuph
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Originally posted by Snorlax View PostThanks for that info! I had never heard of that company before. Some interesting instruments there...as well as a few interesting translations!
But yes, that shop has very interesting instruments! A clone of most of the major brands with a detailed guide on picking the right one for you. Looking for a British sound? Looking for more resistance? Want a more neutral/American sound? They have a euph that will suit your needs, with tons of choices of plating too! Not sure about the quality, but price wise, it seems to be in the higher range for China-made budget euphs? Would definitely love to test one of them one day!
I've never seen or heard of them outside of Japan though, only 1 sale on Reverb for it from Australia (also 2 years ago when I saw it)Last edited by ChristianeSparkle; 07-15-2020, 09:11 PM."Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"
Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL
https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/
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Originally posted by Snorlax View PostI wonder if the premise of Bevan's statement about disdain for slide-pulling and extra valves holds today?
Points to ponder:
*If the Blaikely compensation system is so efficient, why do so many euphoniums require a trigger?
I've still got to think that a fifth valve would offer just as much in the low register as compensation does, PLUS offering a
number of potentially intonation-correcting alternatives for the usual suspect notes...all without foot-long valves. A fifth valve
could also take a larger bore, thus facilitating low-register clarity and response. Most horns now are dual-bore, anyway.
*Tubists are certainly not averse to five or six valves these days...maybe euphoniumists might not gripe about five.
*The euphonium is already non-ergonomic enough...would a fifth valve make it that much more non-ergonomic? There could be some reduction in weight and expense, since there would be no need for special valves and the odd tubing off the back of the valves--and parts could well be made from existing stock of valves and tubing.
*Somewhere in my vast trivia files I have a spreadsheet, perhaps created by Dr. Young, showing RMS intonation errors for different systems. IIRC, the system with the least average expected intonation error was the three-valve compensation system. I can't recall, though, if it included a five-valve option, nor can I call the exact methodology.
*I wonder if manufacturers keep to the same basic designs due to an orthodoxy among euphonium players?
As for slide pulling, I doubt any top euphonium player would countenance this for an instant, when you'd be adding a playing mechanism that isn't necessary as things stands, likewise a fifth valve. I suspect that an extra valve and associated tubing would weigh the same, and probably more than the compensating system. For the determinedly amateur brass band player, you would end up with two valves to ignore.
I've been lucky in the past to sell euphoniums for a living, and to have owned a tremendous number of them. I play in a brass band and if that's not the definition of furious traditionalism I don't know what is, which is why you only see British styles euphoniums, baritone horns, and tubas. And why I suspect that no brand seeking to break into the brass band market has ever made anything that doesn't owe a huge debt to B&H Sovereign designs.Nowt
Retired
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Originally posted by Snorlax View PostThanks for this reminder, Fujiifilm! Here is an excerpt from the explanation on HORNGUYS. COM :
This rotor tunes to a flat whole step. That means the low Eb is right in tune played as 4-5. You can also think of the "flat whole step" tuning as being a whole step in F, just like most tuba fifth rotors. The rotor is easily removable so you can return to a four valve instrument when you prefer less weight. The valve lets you play the entire chromatic scale down into the pedal note range, using fingering patterns that are the same as most any five valve tuba. Here are the fingerings for the notes below the bass clef with five valves:
- F 4
- E 2-4
- Eb 4-5
- D 2-3-4
- Db 1-3-4 or 3-4-5
- C 2-3-4-5
- B 1-2-3-4-5
- Bb 0
In any case, it isn't worth $675 to me. ;-)
For further reference, here's the list of alternative fingerings that it comes up with:
It suggests 2-3-5 as much closer to ET pitch than 2-4 for the transposing F# (concert pitch E).
For the Eb(Db), it picks out 3-4-5 as close, but 1-2-4-5 as closer. 1-3-4 it flags as only an emergency possible fingering, due to huge sharpness - which of course one could solve with a pull slide, but there's no need when 1-2-4-5 is available.
For both D(C) and C#(B), pull slides are needed to get close.
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Adding a 5th valve would be absolutely ludicrous. You take away the compensating tubing and extra valve length, sure, but you're adding another valve casing+valve+subsequent valve tubing which is gonna need to be wrapped a LOT for it to fit in the general shape of the instrument, increasing resistance and stuffiness in the process, and you would easily gain the weight back. There is a reason why manufacturers try to make the 4th valve wraps as open as physically possible. It would also still need compensating because a 5+1 or 5+2 valve combination would still be sharp as hell, and it would making use of all valves when possible even more complicated and awkward to use, let alone hold the instrument.
The trigger is mainly for notes that are sharp anyway because of the way brass instruments work, namely the 6th partial. Yes, Bessons are notorious for the quite absurd sharpness in that area, but even my Willson 2960 is 15 to 20-ish cents sharp there, needing to be played with alternate fingerings. That's just how physics work.
And regarding orthodoxy... well, we have a certain sound concept in mind, the instruments we have now provide that, so why change? If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The only thing we have to be aware of is that the instruments don't get even bigger and almost transform in actual baby tubas.Euphoniums
2008 Willson 2960TA Celebration
1979 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Round Stamp)
Mouthpiece: Denis Wick SM4
Baritone
1975 Besson New Standard
Mouthpiece: Courtois 10
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Originally posted by Rodgeman View PostFor Snorlax
The King 2280 would let you switch the tuning slides on the fourth valve to tune in at Eb. This gives the chromatic scale down to Bb.
From https://www.hornguys.com/products/ki...oist-euphonium
"Fourth valve in Eb: If you reverse the fourth slides and pull them to their extremes, you can tune the fourth valve to Eb by itself.
F 1-3T
E 1-2-3T
Eb 4
D 2-4
Db 1-2-4
C 2-3-4
B 1-2-3-4
The low notes all settle in pretty well without any trigger added. And let me say this: Low Eb played on one .600" valve is completely captivating. I want to play it again and again. Loud. This pattern makes a bit more sense to me than the above Fourth_in_E pattern, but of course, your mileage may vary. The drawbacks still include having to play 1-3 and 1-2-3 with that fourth piston button sort of in the way, and also not being able to set your horn down on the bell due to the extended fourth slide."
That page has lots of interesting information. The YEP-321 used to have an extended third valve slide. So maybe instead of a 5th valve you could have an extended 4th valve slide? Just an idea.
And here's what the same spreadsheet makes of this layout, assuming the 3rd slide stays permanently tuned for a good G(F) on 1-3:
Deduced preferred fingerings:
Alternatives:
[Edit: Oh, that's a shame, they came through much smaller than I attached them, so much so that they can't really be read. I guess attachments get shrunk to a maximum permitted size?]
F#(E) is very sharp on 1-2-3 without further pulling, and so is E(D) on 2-4, but there aren't any closer combinations.
Low B on 1-2-3-4 it rather likes already, in contrast to the HornGuys list.Last edited by MoominDave; 07-16-2020, 05:37 AM.
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Originally posted by TheJH View PostAdding a 5th valve would be absolutely ludicrous.
The Blaikley system, by and large, works well and gets rid of the need for a 5th valve. Why would I want yet another valve? Plus the joy of moving slides around in real time like a tuba player? I can play a modern euphonium sitting or standing without the need for props and stands, and my hands don't leave the horn or move around to accommodate more than the three strong fingers on my right hand and one on my left, plus my thumb.
"Look ma, my hands never leave my body (of the horn)!"
Most modern compensating euphoniums are now "designed" to be either roughly in tune or sharp on most notes. This gets rid of the need to lip notes up. The sharp notes (6th partial), 1-2-3-4 B naturals, and any other quirks (middle G's and low F's on my Bessons and Sterlings) are handled pretty well with the trigger. On my triggerless Adams, I use alternate fingering (3rd valve) on middle G and have to lip 6th partial F down a bit, but Eb and E are spot on. On my untriggered Besson Sovereign, I used 1-3 for 6th partial Eb and 1-2 for F to bring the wild sharpness under control.
OTOH, my Conn Connstellation and most Yamaha 321's that I have played have some serious "flat spots" which are harder to manage in my opinion. Typical are middle C (1st valve), the A below that (2nd valve), and on the Conn, most notes above high G (1-2 or 3) up to high C. This is a product of their extreme sharpness in the low range. The designers tend to make the 1st and 2nd valve loops just a bit longer to "compensate" in the 1-3, 1-2-3, and 4th valve notes below low Eb.
It is not true that innovative designs have not been attempted. A few years back, someone came up with a new wrap for a 3+1 compensating euphonium that was marketed as the Gemeinhardt I-808. The wrap is illustrated in a CAD drawing below. I played one at the Army Conference twice over a 2 year span. Then it disappeared from the face of the earth. It had an awkward (for me) 4th valve position and a 2-way trigger mechanism that went both sharp and flat. In spite of (or because of?) the "innovations", it played poorly, had really kind of bad intonation which the trigger didn't have enough travel to solve, and now appears to have disappeared from the face of the earth.
In the tuba world, we have at least three major layouts of horns in the "American" style, British style, and German style. We have rotors (largely German), top action pistons (American and British), and front action piston (American and German) with anywhere from 3 to 6 valves. BUT each of these designs and their wraps are dated in history at least 100 years old, and are suited (generally) for specific tasks based on their pitch (BBb, C, Eb, F) and target audience (Jazz, Orchestral, Wind Band, Brass Band, Marching band, chamber ensembles, solo, etc.).
In the euphonium world, we have just one pitch (Bb an octave above the BBb tuba), fewer accepted roles (Brass Band, Symphonic band, Marching band, and a more limited set of chamber ensembles and Jazz venues). That the horns have evolved into just two generally accepted formats (British style and German style) and that the front action American style non compensated euphonium has largely evolved into a marching horn (curved bell or DCI style) does not surprise me. Keep in mind, that the last big revolution in American wind band use of the euphonium occurred in the 1950s with the transition to the British style euphonium in Military bands (1st), College and University (2nd), and by 1970s to secondary schools as well.
The instrument we largely use works well, suits the uses to which we put it, and has been ably refined over the last 100 years, not just by B&H/Besson and its antecedants, but by the many manufacturers and artists who joined the marketplace starting with Yamaha in the 70s, later Willson, and the explosion of quality manufacturers after the demise of old Besson in 2005.
We will continue to see innovation and refinement, but I doubt we will see any revolutionary change.Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
Concord Band
Winchendon Winds
Townsend Military Band
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Just another word about the compensating system. Its benefit is enabling the same fingerings in each octave. It's very helpful to me in my practice, and now and then in performance. I'd hate to use either of the special fingering charts displayed earlier to play this etude, for example:
https://youtu.be/mO-Deb9lZM0
Dave Werden (ASCAP)
Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
Adams Artist (Adams E3)
Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
YouTube: dwerden
Facebook: davewerden
Twitter: davewerden
Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium
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How difficult would it be to offer a variety of receiver sizes on an Adams euphonium? The large and medium receivers work well on my Hirsbrunner. Also what about an adjustable right hand rest? Maybe it could be removable with a number of different sizes and shapes available - even one made of stainless steel or carbon fiber? How crazy would it be to redesign the lead pipe with an adjustable tuning slide on it similar to a saxhorn operated by trigger? I also like the idea of Pollard Water Keys in place of regular water keys. Anyway, I'm just babbling at this point.
Thanks,
Robert Pendergast, DM
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