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Thread: K, I have at least one of every "common" tenor shank mouthpiece

  1. #1

    K, I have at least one of every "common" tenor shank mouthpiece

    (Except for whatever goofy thing H.N. White used on the Trombonium)

    Now what? I don't have horns to test all of them on because I don't have anything bigger than medium shank (yet).

    There have been at least two tapers. 5% (standard) and whatever Conn and Besson were using. I can't for the life of me get a consistent measurement to figure it out and it's too close to figure out where the wobble comes from. Maybe it's 4%. Maybe it's 6%. I dunno. I don't have a horn with a big enough receiver to confirm that the two smaller Conn "Remington" tapers are the same pitch as Remington Bass Trombone shank.

    Small shank is small shank. It's not very interesting.

    There is a not so well documented Conn small shank (11mm). Probably not so well documented because it works either way if you ignore the wobble. If you insert a Besson medium shank (or whatever) mouthpiece into the receiver of an old style Conn 20-I, it will stick out a mile, but it won't wobble.

    Medium shank is an (in)appropriate description of like 4 different shanks. Even better that the insertion depth is just as consistent. (ie it isn't)

    Conn medium shank (11.5mm) seems like it should be compatible with "Euro" shank (11.7-12mm?). "Bariton shaft" (11.5mm @ 5%) and Russian Baritone shank (12mm @ 5%) aren't the same thing. Insertion depth with these is all over the place, also. My Soviet horns are designed for a whopping 20mm depth, so the mouthpieces look like they're hanging out a mile. If you insert a "Euro" shank mouthpiece into a 12mm shank reciever, it works alright with some wobble. If you insert a "Euro" shank mouthpiece into a 11.5mm shank receiver, something is getting damaged. I bought a Besson 10 hoping to get a more official measurement, but it has too much damage to teach me anything. Not a bad mouthpiece though!

    The Tuba mouthpiece in the photo is from a B&F stencil Eb Bass. It's using the proprietary taper medium shank for some reason. Such a huge throat and small shank is not a good combination for intonation! Again, I can't measure it well enough to get a taper measurement. It seems to only insert 20mm and the receiver is about 13mm. So if I try to calculate the taper...12mm = 5% (wrong), 11.9 = 5.5%, 11.8 = 6%, 11.7 = 6.5%. See the problem?

    Large shank is all over the place. I see why adjustable gap receivers are a thing. According to Josef Klier, whom I trust more than most, large shank should be 12.5mm and the "other" Bass Trombone shank is 12.65mm. Bach lists large shank as ~12.6mm (.496"). A large shank Kelly 51D measures 12.5mm if you catch it just right. I have an unmarked mouthpiece with a shank that is clearly enlarged (slightly) from another template and it measures 12.65mm. And then I got some random Chinese mouthpiece made on a Denis Wick blank which measures 12.75mm! It's a lot shorter than it should be and the backbore is huge, so that accounts for it a little bit, but...yeah. 12.75 to 12.5 is 5mm in shank length!

    Remington shank (13mm) is enormous. I have a Remington 6-1/2AL (why is this a thing?) and it won't even catch on anything that I own, so I can't confirm that this is the same taper as the other Conn shank sizes. Supposedly, they're related.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by notaverygoodname View Post
    (Except for whatever goofy thing H.N. White used on the Trombonium)

    Now what? I don't have horns to test all of them on because I don't have anything bigger than medium shank (yet).

    There have been at least two tapers. 5% (standard) and whatever Conn and Besson were using. I can't for the life of me get a consistent measurement to figure it out and it's too close to figure out where the wobble comes from. Maybe it's 4%. Maybe it's 6%. I dunno. I don't have a horn with a big enough receiver to confirm that the two smaller Conn "Remington" tapers are the same pitch as Remington Bass Trombone shank.

    Small shank is small shank. It's not very interesting.

    There is a not so well documented Conn small shank (11mm). Probably not so well documented because it works either way if you ignore the wobble. If you insert a Besson medium shank (or whatever) mouthpiece into the receiver of an old style Conn 20-I, it will stick out a mile, but it won't wobble.

    Medium shank is an (in)appropriate description of like 4 different shanks. Even better that the insertion depth is just as consistent. (ie it isn't)

    Conn medium shank (11.5mm) seems like it should be compatible with "Euro" shank (11.7-12mm?). "Bariton shaft" (11.5mm @ 5%) and Russian Baritone shank (12mm @ 5%) aren't the same thing. Insertion depth with these is all over the place, also. My Soviet horns are designed for a whopping 20mm depth, so the mouthpieces look like they're hanging out a mile. If you insert a "Euro" shank mouthpiece into a 12mm shank reciever, it works alright with some wobble. If you insert a "Euro" shank mouthpiece into a 11.5mm shank receiver, something is getting damaged. I bought a Besson 10 hoping to get a more official measurement, but it has too much damage to teach me anything. Not a bad mouthpiece though!

    The Tuba mouthpiece in the photo is from a B&F stencil Eb Bass. It's using the proprietary taper medium shank for some reason. Such a huge throat and small shank is not a good combination for intonation! Again, I can't measure it well enough to get a taper measurement. It seems to only insert 20mm and the receiver is about 13mm. So if I try to calculate the taper...12mm = 5% (wrong), 11.9 = 5.5%, 11.8 = 6%, 11.7 = 6.5%. See the problem?

    Large shank is all over the place. I see why adjustable gap receivers are a thing. According to Josef Klier, whom I trust more than most, large shank should be 12.5mm and the "other" Bass Trombone shank is 12.65mm. Bach lists large shank as ~12.6mm (.496"). A large shank Kelly 51D measures 12.5mm if you catch it just right. I have an unmarked mouthpiece with a shank that is clearly enlarged (slightly) from another template and it measures 12.65mm. And then I got some random Chinese mouthpiece made on a Denis Wick blank which measures 12.75mm! It's a lot shorter than it should be and the backbore is huge, so that accounts for it a little bit, but...yeah. 12.75 to 12.5 is 5mm in shank length!

    Remington shank (13mm) is enormous. I have a Remington 6-1/2AL (why is this a thing?) and it won't even catch on anything that I own, so I can't confirm that this is the same taper as the other Conn shank sizes. Supposedly, they're related.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mouthpieces.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	1.47 MB 
ID:	7726
    Not sure what your question is.

    Mike

  3. #3
    Anything I can do to get some more useful information besides spend another $5k on horns and measuring equipment?
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    155
    I'm in agreement. Are you asking any type of question? Shanks taper, so in some ways the starting and ending size is immaterial. Some specifically design their mouthpieces to have the throat closer to the end. You have to remember that the inner shape of the mouthpiece is not dictated by the outer shape. Also mouthpieces made using Stainless Steel can have much thinner shank walls, so they may extend the shank somewhat.

    Far more important is the taper, and the Remington design mouthpieces use a different tapered reamer, and were designed for Conn Trombones, which for decades used that taper on their large bore tenor and bass trombones.

    Also there is this thread with some basics on the "general" size of the different shank sizes. Please note that Small, Medium/European, and large shanks all have the same taper rate. I think they use the "Morse" taper, while remington uses the "Brown & Sharpe" taper.

    https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

    More info here:

    http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...s#.XuF9hecpCUk
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS Euphonium, 1952 B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, and a bunch of trombones.

  5. #5
    Ok, let me be very specific.

    I want to know if anyone has a known and affordable method of confirming the measurement of a taper.

    I don't care what type of number I get at first. I just want to be able to convert it into terms of % so that I can document these things in complete detail. There should be sufficient information so that someone can identify a shank size and order a custom mouthpiece that will fit the same instrument.

    I am tired of the massive amount of misinformation and unrecorded information concerning all of these shank types. In the year 2020, we should be able to do more than guess and shove the mouthpiece in until it sticks. The difference between 11.5mm, 11.7mm, and 12mm doesn't sound like much until your mouthpiece falls out for the 82nd time and you can't play low concert F because your gap is 10mm off.


    Quote Originally Posted by tbonesullivan View Post
    I'm in agreement. Are you asking any type of question? Shanks taper, so in some ways the starting and ending size is immaterial
    The starting size is literally how the shank functions. It has a starting size and it tapers at a specific pitch, which is normally 5%. Gap isn't just an excuse for Trumpet players to spend money. If you just guess at this stuff, you get the reputation of the Trombonium. In reality, it's one of the most intune instruments I've ever played. But everyone and their dog jams in a 6.5AL and considers the horn a failure when they don't notice their mouthpiece wobbling all over the place.

    Far more important is the taper, and the Remington design mouthpieces use a different tapered reamer, and were designed for Conn Trombones, which for decades used that taper on their large bore tenor and bass trombones.
    Yes, the issue is that I want to confirm the identity of these tapers in an actual term that a machinist can reproduce. If you're having a custom mouthpiece made, you don't ask for a Morse #whatever. You ask for the size based on the small end and the pitch which is normally 5% (1:20).

    Also there is this thread with some basics on the "general" size of the different shank sizes. Please note that Small, Medium/European, and large shanks all have the same taper rate. I think they use the "Morse" taper, while remington uses the "Brown & Sharpe" taper.
    I am not convinced that Euro shank is 5% taper. I'd love to have some way to actually measure it properly. 11.5mm shank mouthpiece wobbles in the Conn 20-I. Euro shank doesn't. Even if the difference is less than 0.5%, I want to know.

    The defined tapers are inconsistent and don't match anything that a horn uses. Morse #0 would be equivalent to 6.4mm @ 5.2%. Morse #1 would be ~9.4mm @ 4.997%. Morse #2 is 14.5mm @ 5%, which is probably a good match for Subcontrabass Tuba.

    Even if "Remington" shank is 4.18%, how do you relate a Brown and Sharpe taper to a mouthpiece?


    Also the old thread lists large shank as 12mm which it isn't.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    155
    Per mouthpiece express: https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalo...h=197_204_1833

    The Remington shank or stem is similar to the standard large shank trombone mouthpiece, The difference is the rate of taper. A modern large shank mouthpieces has a Morse taper .050" rise per inch length and the Remington style shanks have a taper similar to the Brown and Sharp taper .04167" rise per inch length.

    Remington shanks were used in many vintage Conn large bore trombones starting in Elkhart, (1954-70) to Abilene, TX (1970-86) to Eastlake, OH (1986-92) Conn 8H, 88H, 60H, 62H, 70H-73H from around 1954 until the early 90’s. PLEASE NOTE the modern Generation II 8H and 88H trombones use the standard large shank Morse taper mouthpiece offered on our website, not a Remington shank.
    Also: https://www.hornguys.com/products/sc...ington-shank-1

    As I said before, there is no absolute requirement for end diameter of a mouthpiece for a specific shank. Some mouthpieces, such as the Kanstul George Roberts, were specifically designed to fit farther into the receiver to bring the throat closer to the leadpipe venturi.

    Bob Reeves mouthpieces have sleeved shanks so that people can adjust the depth of their mouthpiece in the receiver. Noted Trombone Player Sam Burtis would use teflon tape to fine tune the depth of virtually all his mouthpieces.

    You seem to be looking for some type of absolute answer, and unfortunately there is none with regards to mouthpiece shanks and receivers.
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS Euphonium, 1952 B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, and a bunch of trombones.

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