Wick 2AL

[longhornpatino]

Just seeking any advice regarding this Wick 2AL (classic). The MP came with a beautiful B&H Sovereign that I purchased not long ago. Arrived in a Besson case with a great collection of international stickers and the previous owner's name in braille. Very interesting. Anyhow, I have become accustomed to playing either a Besson Sovereign 968 or XO with the Demondrae MP or G&W Carbonaria. This B&H feels heavy and not as quick on its feet, and I am certain that I can attribute this to my control of the instrument at the moment, but the tone is absolutely stunning....especially with this 2AL (which also assists with intonation) which presents a problem for me, because endurance is dramatically diminished. I know it is about practice, practice, practice, however; when is a mouthpiece just too big for a player? Can this be a situation where I just power through, put in the hours, and eventually become comfortable on the MP, or is it a lost cause? I thought the Carbonaria was big, but this Wick feels like a giant in comparison and coupled with the different characteristics of the B&H played with a mute, progress is painstakingly slow.

[Snorlax]

Hi, Mr. Patino...may I call you Longhorn?
When switching to a larger mouthpiece, the temptation is to try to do--instantly--everything you could do on a smaller mouthpiece. That can lead to several bad outcomes such as excessive mouthpiece pressure, forcing the sound, closing the throat, pitch issues, etc. I had a Carbonaria for a while and found it to be too big FOR ME. Likewise for any 2-sized piece such as Wick or Bach. Generally speaking, Sovereigns were designed with the Wick 4 or 3.5 in mind. I don't know anyone who uses a 2-sized piece except bass trombone doublers, and they usually can't go above F over Middle C. So IF you do make the switch, please do it slllloooowwwwllllyyyyy and do not fall victim to the desire to match your previous skill level instantly. I have used dozens of different pieces over the years but never moved more than one size larger or smaller so I could avoid the potential pitfalls above. IMHO any 2-sized piece is too big for a Sovereign. In retrospect, I matched well to a Sovereign 968 and a Wick 4. Additionally, sometimes people buy a mouthpiece with a deep CUP because they like its WIDTH. The two, unfortunately, often accompany one another, but don't have to. With the Wick 3.5, you get the cup DEPTH of the 4 with the WIDTH of the 3. While I am now using a Wedge mouthpiece, I revert to the 3.5 from time to time.

[longhornpatino]

Undoubtedly, I would have many great stories if I went by Longhorn. May need to from now on....haha. Thank you so much for your reply. It makes sense, and I feel like I know better, but the sound is too appealing to immediately dismiss it.

[John Morgan]

Well, Arthur Lehman would be impressed. He used about the biggest mouthpiece for euphonium I have ever seen. I don't know what it was. I played for a while with him in the National Concert Band of America in the early 90's. He had a student who also used a hhhuuugggeee mouthpiece. The MPs looked like bass trombone pieces in size. I just couldn't figure out why they wanted to do this.

I agree with Snorlax that a 2 is just a tad too big, but everyone is different, and Arthur Lehman wasn't exactly a slouch of a euphonium player. I have played most versions of the 3 and 4 sizes of Wick and SM mouthpieces. When I got my Miraphone, one major horn ago, I got the Demondrae piece with it, and I have loved and used it ever since, going on about 6 years or so now. I use it on my Adams E3 and on my Wessex Dolce. I also own a B&H Imperial that I use another smaller piece on.

Have you had the chance to have a trusted music person listen to you play on the 2AL? vs. say the Demondrae piece? That might be interesting. And of course tone is important, very. And the overall sound. People's opinion of sound and tone and warmth and mellowness and other sound qualities can vary widely. In the end you have to be happy with the outcome. I think a 2AL would be much more demanding to maintain a good range and endurance on.

[dsurkin]

Well, Arthur Lehman would be impressed. He used about the biggest mouthpiece for euphonium I have ever seen. I don't know what it was. I played for a while with him in the National Concert Band of America in the early 90's. He had a student who also used a hhhuuugggeee mouthpiece. They MPs looked like bass trombone pieces in size. I just couldn't figure out why they wanted to do this.[snip].

Walter Barrett, who's my section leader in the Westchester Community Band, plays euphonium and trombone using Doug Elliott mouthpieces. His rim size is 114, if I remember correctly. I've heard him play C5 with no problem, and I believe his range extends beyond that. He uses an older Yamaha 641 (with a custom trigger) and has a beautiful dark tone throughout his range.

My teacher, Rob Stattel (a former student of Brian Bowman) plays a Willson with a BB1 mouthpiece, getting a very singing tone. It's interesting to hear the different conceptions of euphonium tone.

[Shawn]

I can't imagine making a 2AL work, but I'm always guilty of overweighting my own point of view from my own playing.
If you tried to stick with it, what's your end-goal?
Is the goal worth it? If so, giddy up. If not, I'd move on.

[highpitch]

John has some good advice there.

In this vein, I've mentioned before the importance of having someone knowledgeable listen while you play the same piece using your MP selections.

We all color our judgement in these cases; after all, we are playing for others to hear.

DDG

[franz]

I am more comfortable with large diameter mouthpieces on the euphonium. I use 4 mouthpieces K&G that alternare depending on the circumstances: K&G3D new version, 26,7 mm; old K&G 3D to which I had to enlarge the diameter because it had been damaged by falling, 27,4 mm; K&G 2,5E 27mm and K&G 1D 27,7mm. I am better with the wider ones, obtaining the upper register without difficulty. ( high F)

[longhornpatino]

Y'all are all very gracious for replying. Thank you. I will likely move on from the 2AL. The end goal is always to produce a beautiful tone across any note over any amount of time.

[Xfoontes]

Jermaine Fryer, (just finished has grad degree and an absolutely ASTONISHING euphonium player) uses a bach 1.5 g for me I thought it was absolutely insane but he can control that thing eons better than I can control my schilke 51d !!

[Rodgeman]

I use a Doug Yeo replica mouthpiece on my JP 274. I played bass trombone and tuba for many years. I tried the 4AL that come with it but it is just too small for me.

FEATURES

28.72mm inner diameter
Semi-flat contour
Semi-thin
Semi-deep cup
8mm throat
Semi-wide backbore

[John Morgan]

I use a Doug Yeo replica mouthpiece on my JP 274. I played bass trombone and tuba for many years. I tried the 4AL that come with it but it is just too small for me....

Now that is one big mouthpiece for a euphonium! I own a Doug Yeo signature model Yamaha bass trombone along with his signature mouthpiece. I tried the Yeo mouthpiece on my euphonium just now, then put my Demondrae piece back in, and after listening to what the Yeo sounded like on my euphonium, the Demondrae piece made my euphonium sound like a baritone. My high range was not good with the Yeo piece.

You are a better man than me, Rodgeman, who can play his euphonium with the Yeo MP. Have you tried the Demondrae or a 3ish sized piece?

[Rodgeman]

Now that is one big mouthpiece for a euphonium! I own a Doug Yeo signature model Yamaha bass trombone along with his signature mouthpiece. I tried the Yeo mouthpiece on my euphonium just now, then put my Demondrae piece back in, and after listening to what the Yeo sounded like on my euphonium, the Demondrae piece made my euphonium sound like a baritone. My high range was not good with the Yeo piece.

You are a better man than me, Rodgeman, who can play his euphonium with the Yeo MP. Have you tried the Demondrae or a 3ish sized piece?

Thank you for the kind words - although based on your resume I doubt I am the better man. Certainly not in the same league playing wise. As I am coming back from playing a Geib style tuba mouthpiece I gravitated to a larger mouthpiece and still owned the Doug Yeo. I liked the mass with it also.

You inspired me in practice today to try my 4AL again. It does make the higher register easier.

Once the world has settled down I think I will look into the Demondrae or a 3ish or 2ish. The 4AL was still bright for me. Thank you for the interesting topic.

[Rodgeman]

In keeping with this thread I have been inspired to move off of the large Doug Yeo mouthpiece to a Denis Wick 3AL. I can';t wait to try it.

Thank you longhornpatino for starting this discussion to get me to look at my own playing.

Also thank you John Morgan for the adivce.