Water stuck in Besson 956 Sovereign 4 Valve Baritone

[superted]

Hi everyone,

Does anyone have enough experience with the 4 Valve Sovereign Baritone to know where there water gets trapped, where the only way empty it is to rotate the instrument to shift the water to a different part of the horn?

I'm thinking of installing a Saturn Valve to help me empty the horn without having to spin it around but not sure where to put it so that it'll be resolve the problem.

Ted

[bbocaner]

right at the bottom of the second loop. never happened to me often enough that I felt like I needed to add a water key, but under some conditions it does tend to collect there.

[davewerden]

Is there any reason to think this problem is unique to the 4-valve models? My 3-valve Sovereign will collect water in that loop...slowly. But if I'm in a situation where there is a water problem in general, such as when it is damp and cold in the room/environment, it collects more often there, just as it does everywhere else.

Look at your horn as though it were clear plastic. Imagine water in the loop. While the horn is flat in your lap, you can make subtle tips this way & that way to get the water around to the main water key. That is a way to handle it with subtlety when you are in public.

[bbocaner]

Is there any reason to think this problem is unique to the 4-valve models?

No. The 956 also has a weird little U-turn bend in the fourth valve loop, but if I am remembering correctly it has a water key there already. It's been a while since I played one and couldn't find any great photos online.

[superted]

Is there any reason to think this problem is unique to the 4-valve models?

I haven't played a 3 valve one for many years now, and don't remember it being a big issue on the 3 valve version.

[superted]

No. The 956 also has a weird little U-turn bend in the fourth valve loop, but if I am remembering correctly it has a water key there already. It's been a while since I played one and couldn't find any great photos online.

Yes there is a water key in that 4 valve loop. I don't use the 4th valve often enough for it to collect water in those pipes.

[superted]

No. The 956 also has a weird little U-turn bend in the fourth valve loop, but if I am remembering correctly it has a water key there already. It's been a while since I played one and couldn't find any great photos online.

Yep I think i know where you are describing... It's the only loop without a water key (apart from the bottom bow).

I know baritone players on this horn spin their horn by habit to get all the water out, but I spend 90% of my time on the euph so I don't develop that habit.

Water does get trapped there, quite frequently for me. So in a performance there'd be a break, so I would empty the keys... Then I resume playing to find that there is water bubbling inside that loop... Then i need to wait for the next appropriate break in the music for me to spin the horn and empty slides afterwards.

For some reason I am only comfortable with spinning the horn one way (bell into me) because I feel like it's easier to drop the horn the other way, which would actually get the water out of the bell.

[Cameron J.]

No. The 956 also has a weird little U-turn bend in the fourth valve loop, but if I am remembering correctly it has a water key there already. It's been a while since I played one and couldn't find any great photos online.

From my understanding, early on in the production of the 956, there was a water key placed on this loop. However, later on in the instrument's production life, this water key was removed.

I don't think the problem is unique to just the 4-valve model. I've played on both the 3-valve and 4-valve Sovereign baritones and they both collect water very easily (I never have this problem on euphonium). Whilst this problem can mostly be overcome by continually making sure you regularly empty the water from the instrument, eventually you will need to spin it around to drain some of the stuck water that collects.

[djwpe]

My 3-valve 955 gets water in that loop. I generally try to spin it to get that water to come out the bell.

And "spin" is really not a good term. It’s more like "slowly rotate to allow the water to gently flow"

Don Winston

[daruby]

All Bb English baritones gurgle.

I have played the 955 3-valve (and a number of equivalents), the 956 4-valve (actually a York 3056 built using the same tooling), and the Besson 2056 4-valve. ALL Bb baritone's have the "can't get the water out" problem. The problem is the 2nd loop AFTER the tuning slide before the bottom bow. There is no spit valve water accumulates and gurgles in this loop after the tuning slide.

My procedure on most baritones is:

1. Empty 1st valve, 2nd valve, 3rd valve, and 4th valve slides (if it has one) BEFORE the tuning slide. I am "slide puller" instead of a "spit valve user" so my slides will really empty.
2. Pull tuning slide, empty it and set aside for a second.
3. Slowly spin the instrument in the direction that has the water coming out of the open tuning slide (rather than the bell). This works well and doesn't leave corrosion and ugly drip marks on the inside of the bell. Since you emptied all of the other slides, it shouldn't put crud back into your valves.
4. Conversely spin the horn in the other direction to get the water out the bell. You can do this with the tuning slide in, but then you need to spin twice so that you make sure that any residual water in the tuning slide loop goes out the bell.

The baritone is the only instrument in the brass band that HAS to do this. The problem is that the extra loop is required to get 9 ft. of primary tubing in about the same space as the 6.75 ft of primary tubing that occupies an Eb tenor horn.

BTW, the weird double loop adapter on the 4th valve slide of the 956 rarely has a problem with water accumulation. When I dump the 4trh valve slide, I just pull out the slide itself and leave the tight double loop in place.

Doug

[bbocaner]

I never had a problem with slides on the 2056 but the bottom valve caps are really tough!!

[TheJH]

I have played the 955 3-valve (and a number of equivalents), the 956 4-valve (actually a York 3056 built using the same tooling), and the Besson 2056 4-valve. ALL Bb baritone's have the "can't get the water out" problem. The problem is the 2nd loop AFTER the tuning slide before the bottom bow. There is no spit valve water accumulates and gurgles in this loop after the tuning slide.

My procedure on most baritones is:

1. Empty 1st valve, 2nd valve, 3rd valve, and 4th valve slides (if it has one) BEFORE the tuning slide. I am "slide puller" instead of a "spit valve user" so my slides will really empty.
2. Pull tuning slide, empty it and set aside for a second.
3. Slowly spin the instrument in the direction that has the water coming out of the open tuning slide (rather than the bell). This works well and doesn't leave corrosion and ugly drip marks on the inside of the bell. Since you emptied all of the other slides, it shouldn't put crud back into your valves.
4. Conversely spin the horn in the other direction to get the water out the bell. You can do this with the tuning slide in, but then you need to spin twice so that you make sure that any residual water in the tuning slide loop goes out the bell.

The baritone is the only instrument in the brass band that HAS to do this. The problem is that the extra loop is required to get 9 ft. of primary tubing in about the same space as the 6.75 ft of primary tubing that occupies an Eb tenor horn.

BTW, the weird double loop adapter on the 4th valve slide of the 956 rarely has a problem with water accumulation. When I dump the 4trh valve slide, I just pull out the slide itself and leave the tight double loop in place.

Doug

Which begs the question... If it's such a widespread and well-known issue, why aren't water keys on that penultimate bottom bow a standard thing these days?

[bbocaner]

Which begs the question... If it's such a widespread and well-known issue, why aren't water keys on that penultimate bottom bow a standard thing these days?

You don't get a super huge amount of water in there and because of the larger bore at that part of the instrument you have to get a lot of accumulation before it becomes a gurgle. For me, this is usually a once at the end of rehearsal or practice session ritual. In some situations, perhaps temperature or something, it needs to be done slightly more often.

Water keys aren't "free" -- There is an acoustical disadvantage to adding them, even something like an amado-style key. A JoyKey might be a good idea at that point, but then you need to be constantly replacing the wicks.