Thoughts on Downsizing

[aroberts781]

Thanks for clarifying Dean. I was specifically thinking about the EUPH 101 regular rim when I asked my question, which probably feels slightly different from the XT101 rim you have. And yours is in gold-plate, which will also affect any comparisons in how it feels. In any case thanks for sharing your perspective and experience. Gives me something to think about.

[bbocaner]

DE implies that he makes several different rim styles in the 101 size. From his web site:

The MT series has a general "feel" about like a 7C.
The LT series has a general "feel" about like a 5G
The XT series has a general "feel" about like a 4G
All are available in my standard shape and Narrow, which is a thin rim.

I don't think he means feel on your face. The 101 size is a measure of the diameter of the rim. That's what you "feel" when you put the mouthpiece up to your face. A EUPH 101 is exactly the same shape on the outer edge as a XT or LT 101. What is different is the inner interface with the cup. Your lips do enter into the cup to some extent, but it makes a difference to the general way that the mouthpiece blows and the general "feel" of the way the mouthpiece plays.

[mbrooke]

Alex, when I was looking for an inexpensive way to try out a smaller mouthpiece, it was a tossup between the Faxx 51D and the Kelly. I ultimately decided to go with the Kelly, although I'm not sure it was worth the emotional victory that saving $20 gave me! I have heard decent things about Faxx mouthpieces so maybe I will pick one up to try.

Could you share any of your experiences working down from the SM3 to the 51D? Were there any unexpected changes in your playing? Your favorite things about the switch?



Dean, I haven't really considered that, but it is something to consider since you seem to like yours on your Mack Brass. I notice you also have a DE mouthpiece. Can you comment on the feel of the DE101 rim compared to the BB1/51D?

Regarding the DE 101 vs the 51D, the 51D rim is smaller. DE measured it as a 1.00 size vs his 1.01. The BB1 rim is nominally a 1.02, but it is much sharper than either the 51D or the DE 101.

Mike

[mbrooke]

Thanks for clarifying Dean. I was specifically thinking about the EUPH 101 regular rim when I asked my question, which probably feels slightly different from the XT101 rim you have. And yours is in gold-plate, which will also affect any comparisons in how it feels. In any case thanks for sharing your perspective and experience. Gives me something to think about.

The EUPH 101 and the XT 101 rim shapes are the same. What is different is the EUPH rim has a wider threaded portion to accommodate the wider EUPH cup. The cups depths are the same. For example, an LT I cup is the same depth as the XT I cup and the EUPH I cup. What changes is the width of the cup and the contour.

Mike

[aroberts781]

Thanks for the discussion on the various DE items as well as comparisons to the 51D. I think my plan for now remains to keep experimenting with the smaller piece (Kelly 51D) to see how I like it. I can always pull out my DE EUPH 105 I I8 or my 3AL when I want to compare big vs small. Down the road, I will make the call on whether to stick with the 105/3AL size or go for a smaller rim size on my Doug Elliott. One of the things I was looking forward to with the Doug Elliott was being able to change single aspects of the mouthpiece, so if I decide I like staying small I will start with a smaller DE EUPH rim, probably 102, maybe 101.

At the end of the day, I like what Alex said about not letting numbers and measurements get in the way of making music. Obviously for some if not all there are some physical limitations on what type of mouthpiece does or doesn't work, but for now I haven't yet found that messing around with the smaller Kelly 51D is unpleasant, just different.

[superted]

I'm wondering why you'd want to jump from a 3 rim (105) straight down to a 5 rim (101) and skipping 4 (102 and 103)?

When I bought my DE mouthpiece, Doug got me to send him videos of me playing a couple of notes and then he recommended the set up for me. He was spot on with the rim (he said 102 or 103 would be fine). He recommended the J cup (which was a great setup) but in hindsight the I cup may have suited my taste more.

If you go down the DE route you can ask him to do the same?

[djwpe]

Mouthpiece choice is dependent on personal choice as well as intended use. For example the classic 51D is best for a concert band as opposed to a brass band. It's too focused for brass band use. Wick and similar mouthpieces blend better in a brass ensemble setting. Certainly a narrow diameter with medium deep bowl mouthpiece like the 51D makes for a great high range. It speaks very clearly in that register. Then again Steven Mead, Demondrae Thurmond and others have no high range issues with larger mouthpieces. Steven (prior to his new, not yet released Wick mouthpiece) had been playing an SM4X or U I believe switching from a 3U. The Warburton Demondrae is a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. Both put huge amounts of air through their horns.

the Warburton Demondrae is NOT a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. The rim diameter is 1.03” which by Dave’s chart puts it between a 3 and 4. Note that the mouthpiece does have very little inner bite on the rim, so it feels a bit bigger. The Demondrae has a bit shallower cup than the SM pieces, and a pretty large throat.

the more recent SM pieces (Ultra, Ultra X, etc) have adopted the larger throat, which, in my opinion makes the high register a bit easier.


Don Winston

[mbrooke]

Mouthpiece choice is dependent on personal choice as well as intended use. For example the classic 51D is best for a concert band as opposed to a brass band. It's too focused for brass band use. Wick and similar mouthpieces blend better in a brass ensemble setting. Certainly a narrow diameter with medium deep bowl mouthpiece like the 51D makes for a great high range. It speaks very clearly in that register. Then again Steven Mead, Demondrae Thurmond and others have no high range issues with larger mouthpieces. Steven (prior to his new, not yet released Wick mouthpiece) had been playing an SM4X or U I believe switching from a 3U. The Warburton Demondrae is a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. Both put huge amounts of air through their horns.

Just because I love a good mouthpiece discussion…

According to Terry Warburton, the DT mouthpiece is based on a Bach 3. Likewise, Brain Bowman would say that the 51D is a Bach 3 depth cup with a 6 1/2 AL size rim. The 51D is not what I would consider medium cup depth. It is quite deep. certainly deeper than a Wick 4. Although the cup is more narrow, giving it a very "U" shape. Whether the smaller rim makes the high range is easier is very much a personal matter. Doug Elliott believes that certain players do better on wider rims. I have read other expert opinions that say the somewhat the opposite. I find the high range easier on my DE 103 Euph I cup than I do on a 51D. But, the DE is more tiring to use. it seems that a number of high level players are backing away from the combination of large rim diameter, large cup depth, and large backbore and moving to more moderate sizes.

Mike

[TheJH]

Adding to that, while the 51D is an INCREDIBLY deep mouthpiece, the throat is only 7mm, compared to the 7.38 of the Wick 4AL and the 7.4 of the SMxU series, which also balances things out.

[aroberts781]

I'm wondering why you'd want to jump from a 3 rim (105) straight down to a 5 rim (101) and skipping 4 (102 and 103)?

I don't necessarily plan on sticking with the 5 rim (51D), I was kind of thinking of it as the extreme end of the spectrum for me trying out something smaller. After listening and watching recordings and videos of people sounding great on mouthpieces that I have always thought of as too small for me, I was curious to see what it was like. My first semester in college was on a 51D before switching to the SM3.5, so I thought it would be fun to revisit that to see what it felt like almost 16 years later. On top of that, the Kelly 51D was an inexpensive way to try a smaller mouthpiece size before purchasing a smaller rim for my DE.
It took a little time before I could comfortable/reliably get into the low range with the Kelly 51D (Low F to Pedal Bb), but now it doesn’t feel too restrictive with my range. My next step is to just keep playing on it and evaluate whether I’m happy with the sound. Maybe I can find some way to record some comparisons. Thanks for sharing the your experience with having Doug look at videos of your playing, if I decide to get a smaller DE rim I may look into that as well.

[mbrooke]

Adding to that, while the 51D is an INCREDIBLY deep mouthpiece, the throat is only 7mm, compared to the 7.38 of the Wick 4AL and the 7.4 of the SMxU series, which also balances things out.

Years ago, when Schilke used to charge the same amount for a custom mouthpiece as the stock variety, I had them make a 51D to fit a Doug Elliott XT rim and open the throat to .291 in. They actually widened the cup to exactly match the XT rim. Bad idea. The extra width and open throat make it difficult for me to play. It also changed that certain quality that I find appealing about the 51D. The sound was more open, but lost a good deal of the sweet, syrupy (add your own metaphors) sound of the stock 51D.

Mike

[MichaelSchott]

the Warburton Demondrae is NOT a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. The rim diameter is 1.03” which by Dave’s chart puts it between a 3 and 4. Note that the mouthpiece does have very little inner bite on the rim, so it feels a bit bigger. The Demondrae has a bit shallower cup than the SM pieces, and a pretty large throat.

the more recent SM pieces (Ultra, Ultra X, etc) have adopted the larger throat, which, in my opinion makes the high register a bit easier.


Don Winston

thanks for the correction.