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Thread: Thoughts on Downsizing

  1. I'm wondering why you'd want to jump from a 3 rim (105) straight down to a 5 rim (101) and skipping 4 (102 and 103)?

    When I bought my DE mouthpiece, Doug got me to send him videos of me playing a couple of notes and then he recommended the set up for me. He was spot on with the rim (he said 102 or 103 would be fine). He recommended the J cup (which was a great setup) but in hindsight the I cup may have suited my taste more.

    If you go down the DE route you can ask him to do the same?
    Last edited by superted; 05-18-2020 at 07:44 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSchott View Post
    Mouthpiece choice is dependent on personal choice as well as intended use. For example the classic 51D is best for a concert band as opposed to a brass band. It's too focused for brass band use. Wick and similar mouthpieces blend better in a brass ensemble setting. Certainly a narrow diameter with medium deep bowl mouthpiece like the 51D makes for a great high range. It speaks very clearly in that register. Then again Steven Mead, Demondrae Thurmond and others have no high range issues with larger mouthpieces. Steven (prior to his new, not yet released Wick mouthpiece) had been playing an SM4X or U I believe switching from a 3U. The Warburton Demondrae is a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. Both put huge amounts of air through their horns.
    the Warburton Demondrae is NOT a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. The rim diameter is 1.03” which by Dave’s chart puts it between a 3 and 4. Note that the mouthpiece does have very little inner bite on the rim, so it feels a bit bigger. The Demondrae has a bit shallower cup than the SM pieces, and a pretty large throat.

    the more recent SM pieces (Ultra, Ultra X, etc) have adopted the larger throat, which, in my opinion makes the high register a bit easier.


    Don Winston

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSchott View Post
    Mouthpiece choice is dependent on personal choice as well as intended use. For example the classic 51D is best for a concert band as opposed to a brass band. It's too focused for brass band use. Wick and similar mouthpieces blend better in a brass ensemble setting. Certainly a narrow diameter with medium deep bowl mouthpiece like the 51D makes for a great high range. It speaks very clearly in that register. Then again Steven Mead, Demondrae Thurmond and others have no high range issues with larger mouthpieces. Steven (prior to his new, not yet released Wick mouthpiece) had been playing an SM4X or U I believe switching from a 3U. The Warburton Demondrae is a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. Both put huge amounts of air through their horns.

    Just because I love a good mouthpiece discussion…

    According to Terry Warburton, the DT mouthpiece is based on a Bach 3. Likewise, Brain Bowman would say that the 51D is a Bach 3 depth cup with a 6 1/2 AL size rim. The 51D is not what I would consider medium cup depth. It is quite deep. certainly deeper than a Wick 4. Although the cup is more narrow, giving it a very "U" shape. Whether the smaller rim makes the high range is easier is very much a personal matter. Doug Elliott believes that certain players do better on wider rims. I have read other expert opinions that say the somewhat the opposite. I find the high range easier on my DE 103 Euph I cup than I do on a 51D. But, the DE is more tiring to use. it seems that a number of high level players are backing away from the combination of large rim diameter, large cup depth, and large backbore and moving to more moderate sizes.

    Mike

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    Netherlands
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    159
    Adding to that, while the 51D is an INCREDIBLY deep mouthpiece, the throat is only 7mm, compared to the 7.38 of the Wick 4AL and the 7.4 of the SMxU series, which also balances things out.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by superted View Post
    I'm wondering why you'd want to jump from a 3 rim (105) straight down to a 5 rim (101) and skipping 4 (102 and 103)?
    I don't necessarily plan on sticking with the 5 rim (51D), I was kind of thinking of it as the extreme end of the spectrum for me trying out something smaller. After listening and watching recordings and videos of people sounding great on mouthpieces that I have always thought of as too small for me, I was curious to see what it was like. My first semester in college was on a 51D before switching to the SM3.5, so I thought it would be fun to revisit that to see what it felt like almost 16 years later. On top of that, the Kelly 51D was an inexpensive way to try a smaller mouthpiece size before purchasing a smaller rim for my DE.
    It took a little time before I could comfortable/reliably get into the low range with the Kelly 51D (Low F to Pedal Bb), but now it doesn’t feel too restrictive with my range. My next step is to just keep playing on it and evaluate whether I’m happy with the sound. Maybe I can find some way to record some comparisons. Thanks for sharing the your experience with having Doug look at videos of your playing, if I decide to get a smaller DE rim I may look into that as well.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJH View Post
    Adding to that, while the 51D is an INCREDIBLY deep mouthpiece, the throat is only 7mm, compared to the 7.38 of the Wick 4AL and the 7.4 of the SMxU series, which also balances things out.
    Years ago, when Schilke used to charge the same amount for a custom mouthpiece as the stock variety, I had them make a 51D to fit a Doug Elliott XT rim and open the throat to .291 in. They actually widened the cup to exactly match the XT rim. Bad idea. The extra width and open throat make it difficult for me to play. It also changed that certain quality that I find appealing about the 51D. The sound was more open, but lost a good deal of the sweet, syrupy (add your own metaphors) sound of the stock 51D.

    Mike

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
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    288
    Quote Originally Posted by djwpe View Post
    the Warburton Demondrae is NOT a 2 or 3 size mouthpiece. The rim diameter is 1.03” which by Dave’s chart puts it between a 3 and 4. Note that the mouthpiece does have very little inner bite on the rim, so it feels a bit bigger. The Demondrae has a bit shallower cup than the SM pieces, and a pretty large throat.

    the more recent SM pieces (Ultra, Ultra X, etc) have adopted the larger throat, which, in my opinion makes the high register a bit easier.


    Don Winston
    thanks for the correction.

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