Low Bb is out of tune

[Saxophilist]

I have a Jinbao baritone horn. The low concert Bb (second line of bass clef) is about 20+ cents flat compared to the other partials.

I don't have this intonation problem on other horns.

Anyone else ever experienced this on any horn? What could be the cause?

[davewerden]

Welcome to the forum!

Our 9-foot Bb instruments can sometimes be flat on that note. However, sometimes it is a matter of the player adapting to the instrument. Other times it can be exacerbated by the choice of mouthpiece. Too large a mouthpiece can make a small problem worse. What mouthpiece are you using?

[Saxophilist]

Thanks for the reply! I'm using a Schilke 40B, which is one of the smallest mouthpieces you can get. Using the same mouthpiece on a Yamaha 4-valve euphonium and Reynolds trombone works fine in regards to the intonation.

[davewerden]

OK, then it is not the cup size. Do you have another brand of mouthpiece in that shank size. SOME Schilke mouthpieces stick out of the receiver more than a standard Bach or Wick. I've found that troublesome in the past. I believe Schilke also offers a shank that fits like a Bach, but I'm not sure if that is standard.

(Of course, it's also possible this is just how the horn plays.)

[Saxophilist]

I have access to several Bach mouthpieces, such as the 6 1/2 AL and 12C. I will try them tomorrow to see if they fit farther in and if they have better intonation on that note. Thanks!

[bbocaner]

40b?? That’s unbelievably small. 48(c) would be more like a standard baritone size.

[notaverygoodname]

Sounds like a shank size issue. Can you take a photo of how the mouthpiece is fitting? Be sure to compare it to the stock mouthpiece if you have that. If your Schilke mouthpiece is fitting really deep, then that's the problem.

Other tell-tale symptoms:
Can't play low F at all
Hard to play high (should be obvious with your 40B)

[Saxophilist]

If I remember correctly, the mouthpiece goes in about a 1/3 inch farther in the baritone than it does in the vintage Reynolds trombone.

[notaverygoodname]

Yeah, that's significant. I suggest trying the Bach 381 adapter. It should fix the issue. As a test, try to shim it with some paper. Just a single layer of paper should increase the shank by ~0.5mm.

I had a similar problem with my "Maestro" rotary Euph. It came with, what I assume was an 11.5mm shank receiver, but the stock mouthpiece was medium shank. I didn't know that much about the topic of shank sizes at the time, so I just assumed it was built wrong and reamed it out to medium shank. Never played all that well with that set-up. Later, once I knew what the heck I was doing, I reamed it out yet again to 12mm shank and that fixed it, more or less.

[John Morgan]

Okay, I am a little confused. If the low Bb is flat and we want to raise it, either shorten main slide (all in or cut in drastic cases) or use mouthpiece that goes further in, not further out. But I don't think the further in, further out with the mouthpiece makes a big difference. I own an Adams with an adjustable gap receiver. I don't get much, if any, of a pitch difference in the various positions of the receiver, which is somewhat similar to the mouthpiece fitting further in or further out.

I am a very senior citizen, and it is morning before coffee, so take all of what I said above with these facts in mind. Could be I have it all backwards, but I don't think so.

[notaverygoodname]

Okay, I am a little confused. If the low Bb is flat and we want to raise it, either shorten main slide (all in or cut in drastic cases) or use mouthpiece that goes further in, not further out. But I don't think the further in, further out with the mouthpiece makes a big difference. I own an Adams with an adjustable gap receiver. I don't get much, if any, of a pitch difference in the various positions of the receiver, which is somewhat similar to the mouthpiece fitting further in or further out.

I am a very senior citizen, and it is morning before coffee, so take all of what I said above with these facts in mind. Could be I have it all backwards, but I don't think so.

I know it's confusing as heck. Until I started adding European instruments to my collection, I never put much stock into mouthpiece gapping stuff because all of the instruments I had used before didn't have such issues. Unfortunately, not all instruments are built to the quality of a 50 year old Conn... On the crappy rotary Euphonium I mentioned, I could tell the difference between 19mm and 20mm of insertion.

Somehow or other, the relation of the backbore and leadpipe gap can impact where the partials align. If the gap is negative, higher notes will go sharp. If it's just barely negative, it's reasonable that the horn could be tuned to where only the only lowest two partials are flat.

[John Morgan]

I know it's confusing as heck. Until I started adding European instruments to my collection, I never put much stock into mouthpiece gapping stuff because all of the instruments I had used before didn't have such issues. Unfortunately, not all instruments are built to the quality of a 50 year old Conn... On the crappy rotary Euphonium I mentioned, I could tell the difference between 19mm and 20mm of insertion.

Somehow or other, the relation of the backbore and leadpipe gap can impact where the partials align. If the gap is negative, higher notes will go sharp. If it's just barely negative, it's reasonable that the horn could be tuned to where only the only lowest two partials are flat.

Now that is interesting. What does it mean to have a negative gap, is that the tip of the shank fitting in past the start of the leadpipe? I thought conceptually that the farthest you could push a mouthpiece in the receiver was up to the start of the leadpipe, unless perhaps the leadpipe is tapered down so that it is a smooth transition from receiver to leadpipe.

On my Adams, I can screw the receiver in or out so that the shank of my mouthpiece gets closer or farther away from the start of the leadpipe. I don't think I can go negative if I understand what you are saying.

[bbocaner]

the other thing to keep in mind is that older less acoustically developed instruments do more weird things than more modern instruments which have been well thought out. You can use a wide range of mouthpieces on your adams and they all work pretty well, but if you put something in a 100 year old instrument that is a size or two away from what was intended to be used with it things go haywire.

[John Morgan]

the other thing to keep in mind is that older less acoustically developed instruments do more weird things than more modern instruments which have been well thought out. You can use a wide range of mouthpieces on your adams and they all work pretty well, but if you put something in a 100 year old instrument that is a size or two away from what was intended to be used with it things go haywire.

That makes sense. I have zero or less experience with old instruments (older than the 1950's), although they do intrigue me. The Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix, which Linda and I visited a couple years ago, was really interesting. And we have the National Music Museum on the other side of our state, which is also very interesting (and currently undergoing some major renovations).

I am still curious about a negative gap...

Hmmm, I just realized that the 1950's isn't too far away from 100 years ago. I'm still vertical.

[Saxophilist]

I wrapped tape around it to make it go in less, but it was still out of tune.

I also tried the Bach 6.5 AL, but it was even flatter.

No matter what I tried, the low Bb was still 30+ cents flatter than the F or mid Bb.

The low Bb also feels unstable compared to playing that same note on the euphonium or trombone.

I guess I could file the leadpipe to make the mouthpiece go in further. That way the Bb could be in tune, but the other notes will probably be sharp.