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Thread: Low Bb is out of tune

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    Okay, I am a little confused. If the low Bb is flat and we want to raise it, either shorten main slide (all in or cut in drastic cases) or use mouthpiece that goes further in, not further out. But I don't think the further in, further out with the mouthpiece makes a big difference. I own an Adams with an adjustable gap receiver. I don't get much, if any, of a pitch difference in the various positions of the receiver, which is somewhat similar to the mouthpiece fitting further in or further out.

    I am a very senior citizen, and it is morning before coffee, so take all of what I said above with these facts in mind. Could be I have it all backwards, but I don't think so.
    I know it's confusing as heck. Until I started adding European instruments to my collection, I never put much stock into mouthpiece gapping stuff because all of the instruments I had used before didn't have such issues. Unfortunately, not all instruments are built to the quality of a 50 year old Conn... On the crappy rotary Euphonium I mentioned, I could tell the difference between 19mm and 20mm of insertion.

    Somehow or other, the relation of the backbore and leadpipe gap can impact where the partials align. If the gap is negative, higher notes will go sharp. If it's just barely negative, it's reasonable that the horn could be tuned to where only the only lowest two partials are flat.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,868
    Quote Originally Posted by notaverygoodname View Post
    I know it's confusing as heck. Until I started adding European instruments to my collection, I never put much stock into mouthpiece gapping stuff because all of the instruments I had used before didn't have such issues. Unfortunately, not all instruments are built to the quality of a 50 year old Conn... On the crappy rotary Euphonium I mentioned, I could tell the difference between 19mm and 20mm of insertion.

    Somehow or other, the relation of the backbore and leadpipe gap can impact where the partials align. If the gap is negative, higher notes will go sharp. If it's just barely negative, it's reasonable that the horn could be tuned to where only the only lowest two partials are flat.
    Now that is interesting. What does it mean to have a negative gap, is that the tip of the shank fitting in past the start of the leadpipe? I thought conceptually that the farthest you could push a mouthpiece in the receiver was up to the start of the leadpipe, unless perhaps the leadpipe is tapered down so that it is a smooth transition from receiver to leadpipe.

    On my Adams, I can screw the receiver in or out so that the shank of my mouthpiece gets closer or farther away from the start of the leadpipe. I don't think I can go negative if I understand what you are saying.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  3. #13
    the other thing to keep in mind is that older less acoustically developed instruments do more weird things than more modern instruments which have been well thought out. You can use a wide range of mouthpieces on your adams and they all work pretty well, but if you put something in a 100 year old instrument that is a size or two away from what was intended to be used with it things go haywire.
    --
    Barry

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
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    1,868
    Quote Originally Posted by bbocaner View Post
    the other thing to keep in mind is that older less acoustically developed instruments do more weird things than more modern instruments which have been well thought out. You can use a wide range of mouthpieces on your adams and they all work pretty well, but if you put something in a 100 year old instrument that is a size or two away from what was intended to be used with it things go haywire.
    That makes sense. I have zero or less experience with old instruments (older than the 1950's), although they do intrigue me. The Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix, which Linda and I visited a couple years ago, was really interesting. And we have the National Music Museum on the other side of our state, which is also very interesting (and currently undergoing some major renovations).

    I am still curious about a negative gap...

    Hmmm, I just realized that the 1950's isn't too far away from 100 years ago. I'm still vertical.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  5. I wrapped tape around it to make it go in less, but it was still out of tune.

    I also tried the Bach 6.5 AL, but it was even flatter.

    No matter what I tried, the low Bb was still 30+ cents flatter than the F or mid Bb.

    The low Bb also feels unstable compared to playing that same note on the euphonium or trombone.

    I guess I could file the leadpipe to make the mouthpiece go in further. That way the Bb could be in tune, but the other notes will probably be sharp.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophilist View Post
    I guess I could file the leadpipe to make the mouthpiece go in further. That way the Bb could be in tune, but the other notes will probably be sharp.
    Noooooo, I would not do that. It's tough to undo if it makes matters worse.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Noooooo, I would not do that. It's tough to undo if it makes matters worse.
    The instrument is kind of useless to me as it is without the Bb.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophilist View Post
    The instrument is kind of useless to me as it is without the Bb.
    Understandable! I'm fresh out of ideas.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Understandable! I'm fresh out of ideas.
    I take that back! Have you checked the valve alignment and checked for leaks?
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  10. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I take that back! Have you checked the valve alignment and checked for leaks?
    How can I check that?

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