Oval Baritone

[JTJ]

Nice video of German oval baritone in the beginning of this performance by the Berlin Phil brass ensemble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBeBXwAhwy8

John

[JTJ]

Even more, even better, from the same site. Bydlo on the oval:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271RuwbhtcI

[Snorlax]

Even more, even better, from the same site. Bydlo on the oval:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271RuwbhtcI

I really like that Bydlo!! Too many euphonium players try to make it pretty when it's supposed to be an oxcart lumbering through town, and too many tuba players try to play it and it sounds TOO labored. That oval baritone has a nice amount of rasp or edge to it and he used very little vibrato.

[RickF]

Nice!

[highpitch]

Ugly with no vibrato is pretty easy for me...

GD

[bbocaner]

Looks like a B&S 3046, I like it! I have to say, though, I really enjoy when a really good tubist performs it. I understand this is blasphemous as a euphonium player, but it just gets a certain heft that a euphonium (or baryton) cannot.

[davewerden]

Here is Joe Alessi making the argument for using a British baritone horn for the Mahler 7 solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McXn29jK7Ec

[RickF]

(snip) I really enjoy when a really good tubist performs it. I understand this is blasphemous as a euphonium player, but it just gets a certain heft that a euphonium (or baryton) cannot.

I agree Barry. Alessandro Fossi is still my favorite for the Bydlo solo. Pretty sure it's a B&S F tuba.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx6Eo6liyCg

[notaverygoodname]

The lack of information about various instruments is something that I find extremely concerning. Somehow, the Bb Tenorhorn has become a completely forgotten instrument in the span of maybe 40 years even though you can still buy them brand new. Why is that? Scares me.

The part is marked "Tenor-horn in B (oder Tenortuba)". Mahler might have just wanted whatever 9'Bb thing that he could get, but he was obviously referring to an ovalform horn. The confusing part is that he didn't write "Baßflügelhorn (oder Baryton)" because that would have made a lot more sense and not contributed to the ongoing Mysterious Tale of the Tenor Tuba.

The British Baritone Horn is not related to the Tenorhorn and doesn't sound like it at all. It's actually, acoustically incompatible. If you play either with music that features the other, it sounds really horrible.

And yes, there is a smaller instrument called Tenorhorn (Althorn in B). I actually have one, though my example is designed to function as an actual Bb Alto Horn with the use of interchangeable receivers. (I'm still working on restoring that feature.) Still, fact is, even that instrument is only vaguely similar to the BBB Horn.

[John Morgan]

I like it on euphonium. I like the sound, and I also like it because when our symphony plays it, I get to play the solo (guess that is a selfish take on it). When I lived in Spokane, there was an opening for a euphonium player to sub in the Spokane Symphony. Part of the audition was Bydlo. They were for sure using a euphonium. Most of what I hear of this is played on euphonium. When I play it, I try for a somewhat darker sound, and I use little vibrato, but some.

Although the performance that Rick references above of Alessandro Fossi is pretty special. It almost does not sound like a tuba in that version and on my speakers.

[bbocaner]

notaverygoodname - I had a conversation with Mr. Alessi last summer about this very thing, about how the ovalform Bb tenorhorn you can buy today isn't all that different from the instrument available in the early 1900s for military bands when the symphony was written, and how it's really a very different instrument than the british baritone horn. Suffice it to say, he was not particularly receptive!

I suspect that while a yamaha neo baritone is fairly easy to get at Dillon music just outside of New York City, it'd be an item they reguarly stocked, a Bb ovalform tenorhorn would probably not be. I do applaud his use of an instrument that is smaller than euphonium for the part as it's more difficult to play that way and I do think it sounds better.

Nevertheless, I do think it sounds spectacular played by him on this instrument. I'd love to hear him do it on a Miraphone 47 or similar.

[davewerden]

For the record, I like Bydlo on euphonium for particular reasons. The partial series of the euphonium is closest to that of the tuba Ravel had in mind. Going to a longer horn puts you up in the close partials sooner. It's like playing an Eb trumpet part on Bb trumpet. A good Bb player can do it accurately, but it won't sound the same.

For Mahler 7, I think the German tenorhorn would be a good choice. The German horns or either size are conical, while the British baritone has more conical tubing. Actually, the closest match that is commonly found in the USA would be an American baritone/euphonium. Still conical, but smaller bore than the euphonium I play.

[bbocaner]

For the record, I like Bydlo on euphonium for particular reasons. The partial series of the euphonium is closest to that of the tuba Ravel had in mind. Going to a longer horn puts you up in the close partials sooner.

<snip>

but it won't sound the same.

See, that's exactly why I like it on tuba. It gives it an unwieldy quality. The good players can make it sound easy but still somehow clumsy. And just the volume and breadth of the sound while still sounding like it's being played gently is a great effect. It really works in bydlo. I'm aware that the french tuba is a smaller instrument in many ways than today's euphonium, and I'm usually the first one to argue for at least giving some thought to authenticity when choosing instruments, but I think it just works really well that way. And also, keep in mind that the french tuba even though it was an instrument with a fairly small bore and bell compared to modern instruments was played with a larger more tuba-like mouthpiece, which changed the way it sounded.

Here it is played really well on a C bass saxhorn (aka french tuba) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3xo6zGPbQI

[davewerden]

See, that's exactly why I like it on tuba. It gives it an unwieldy quality.

I see your point, but here is another point. For example, the movement "Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks" is usually, I assume, played on instruments that are as facile as any used in Ravel's time. One would not intentionally choose an instrument that was more difficult to make it sound like awkward poultry. Does that work?

[John Morgan]

….Here it is played really well on a C bass saxhorn (aka french tuba) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3xo6zGPbQI

Thanks, Barry for that link! That is a great performance of Bydlo!! On my speakers, which are pretty good, but not stellar, it sounds a lot like a euphonium. Maybe the combination of slightly smaller bore and larger mouthpiece? I don't know much about French tubas and have never had the opportunity to play one, but I would surely like to. I guess Wessex sells one. The Wessex model has six valves, but it looks like this one in the video has three up and two on the side. And this horn looks "smaller" than the Wessex French tuba. Maybe you can sort that out for me, Barry.