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Noisy 4th Valve Issue

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  • ECRiver
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2020
    • 6

    Noisy 4th Valve Issue

    I'm having an issue with a noisy 4th valve on my Schiller Elite compensating horn. The top three valves are comparatively much quieter while the 4 valve has a sort of clank and slight rattle both when pressed completely down and when released...

    Comparison of valve sounds in this video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uy5...w?usp=drivesdk
    Pressing each valve twice in succession: 1, 2, 3, 4

    Any advice on what I can do to fix it?
  • daruby
    Moderator
    • Apr 2006
    • 2217

    #2
    Does the latch on the 4th valve hold the valve button tightly compressed when you put the horn away? This can compress the felt in the 4th valve finger button causing clank on the downstroke. The 4th valve tends to accumulate moisture, particularly if the horn is stored on its side in the case after playing. This can cause the valve felt (as opposed to finger button) to compress as well causing clank on the upstroke. Symptoms sound like wet, compressed felts to me.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

    Comment

    • John Morgan
      Moderator
      • Apr 2014
      • 1884

      #3
      +1 on what Doug said. Check your felts and pads. You seem to be getting noise on both the down and up stroke, correct? Check to see what is on the valve stem. Compare it to your other valves, although I have seen sometimes where the felt/pad/washer stack is different between the first three valves and the fourth. I am not quite sure why that is. Make sure you have a pad in the valve cap (very top of the valve stem). Is there supposed to be a rubber like pad sitting in the bottom valve cap. Do the other three have that?

      And before you add pads/felts/washers etc., make sure that you don't overly stack the valve stem so that the alignment of the valve is not correct (the valve holes line up with the slides in the fully up and fully down positions).

      Perhaps ask a knowledgeable dealer (of your horn) to find out what you should precisely have on each valve. They may have to ask the manufacturer. If you do have the correct parts, Doug's original diagnosis may be spot on.

      Good news is that you should be able to correct this, or at least make the valve noise less loud.
      Last edited by John Morgan; 04-24-2020, 03:29 PM.
      John Morgan
      The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
      Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
      1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
      Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
      Year Round Except Summer:
      Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
      KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
      Summer Only:
      Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
      Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

      Comment

      • davewerden
        Administrator
        • Nov 2005
        • 11136

        #4
        Keep in mind that a valve rattle may be caused by something other than the valve. A loose joint or lyre screw may rattle from the shock transmitted when you work the valve (although usually that would happen with other valves too).

        I assume you have a 4th valve lock for when you put the horn away. If it pushes down too hard it will compress the finger-button pad, and that will cause noise on the downstroke. You should adjust it so the valve is 1/16" from being all the way down.

        The normal storage position in a case is for the 4th valve to be on the bottom. If that is true for you, moisture inside the horn will find its way to the pad on top of the piston. If that is wet, it causes noise on the upstroke.
        Dave Werden (ASCAP)
        Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
        Adams Artist (Adams E3)
        Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
        YouTube: dwerden
        Facebook: davewerden
        Twitter: davewerden
        Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

        Comment

        • davewerden
          Administrator
          • Nov 2005
          • 11136

          #5
          Oh, and make sure the 4th valve top and bottom caps are not loose; same for the finger button.
          Dave Werden (ASCAP)
          Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
          Adams Artist (Adams E3)
          Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
          YouTube: dwerden
          Facebook: davewerden
          Twitter: davewerden
          Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

          Comment

          • ChristianeSparkle
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2018
            • 366

            #6
            Do tell us once you figure out what's causing the noise! It sounded like a loose cap to me!
            "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

            Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
            Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

            https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
            https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

            Comment

            • tonewheeler
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 460

              #7
              Not sure what type of felts or valves you have, but on the Miraphone 5050 it has "upstroke silencers" (made of plastic) on the top of the valve to keep them quiet. My 2nd valve had a very noisy sound and replacing the silencer did the trick.
              Euphs:
              Miraphone 5050 Ambassador
              Wessex Travel (Tornister) Euphonium 'Maly' ER154
              Yamaha 201 Baritone
              Mp: Wick SM4 Ultra X
              Groups:
              The San Diego Concert Band

              Comment

              • mbrooke
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 401

                #8
                Originally posted by ECRiver View Post
                I'm having an issue with a noisy 4th valve on my Schiller Elite compensating horn. The top three valves are comparatively much quieter while the 4 valve has a sort of clank and slight rattle both when pressed completely down and when released...

                Comparison of valve sounds in this video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uy5...w?usp=drivesdk
                Pressing each valve twice in succession: 1, 2, 3, 4

                Any advice on what I can do to fix it?
                Not sure if this is relevant to your situation, but I have had the same Willson 2900 for the last 30 years and the first valve has also been clanky. There is nothing discernible wrong with it. Changing felts etc. does very little. So, it may just be the valve. Have a tech take a look at it, to see if thereis anything to do.

                Mike

                Comment

                • ECRiver
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2020
                  • 6

                  #9
                  Some updates thus far:

                  I took apart and cleaned the valve. Top and bottom valve caps and button were tight (and are again after cleaning), there is a pad (rubber?) under the finger button as well as felt over the valve guide. I have been storing the horn with 4th valve down as the case only has feet for 4th valve down or bell down... looking into an alternative way to store it to avoid both those options. So it could very well be the wet felt issue. The latch for storing is snug but I do think it has enough space that it's not actively compressing the felt.
                  I did not break down the other three valves to compare, so I'll have to check that out later today.

                  Comment

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