Instrument doubling

[Roger]

All very helpful and some amusing comments. I think for now I'll stick to guitar and autoharp as my additional instruments. My embouchure shouldn't be negatively affected by either.

[davewerden]

All very helpful and some amusing comments. I think for now I'll stick to guitar and autoharp as my additional instruments. My embouchure shouldn't be negatively affected by either.

Have you tried recorder? I learned how to play (barely) while in the CG Band - just something to relax with while on tours and killing time between travel and concerts. It really was relaxing! There is not much chance of conflict with your chops of course. But the most interesting thing is how air works. Basically, if you crescendo with your air you will also go sharp. I believe recorder players often stop notes with their tongue so pitch won't droop. That might be a place to be careful, so the habit doesn't sneak into your euphonium playing. Anyway, a recorder is easy to learn (and hard to master) and very, very portable!

[graeme]

Beware of a basic difference in Dr. Pierce's experience. I have also doubled on tuba and found it quite compatible with euphonium. Both are conical, both need "warm air," and both require chops that can vibrate in a relaxed manner. Now, within the trumpet world I'm sure relaxed vibration is taught to warm the tone, but it is relaxation within a much different overall context. I'm a believer that the BEST euphonium double is tuba (and vice versa). I also play trombone and did so in the CG jazz band. It was less compatible, even though I used the same mouthpiece, because of the cylindrical nature of the trombone.

So do you think doubling on a tuba can benefit your euphonium playing due to the amount of air that is required ?

[davewerden]

So do you think doubling on a tuba can benefit your euphonium playing due to the amount of air that is required ?

You betcha! I started learning tuba for 2 reasons: increase my air and warm my sound.

[djwpe]

What you said about the best euphonium double being a tuba is a comment I would not have agreed with in the past. I play euphonium as my main instrument (after starting on trumpet in my early years). I also play trombone a lot in a couple of orchestras and tuba in some church ensembles and a brass quintet. It certainly wasn't intuitive to me that tuba and euphonium were better doublers than euphonium and trombone. But they are for me, too. And I don't think I realized why until I read your last sentence above. Duh, trombone is more cylindrical!!! That is the key. I use the same mouthpiece on both horns, yet I find the euphonium so much easier to play than the trombone (some of that is I spend a lot of time on the euphonium, not as much on the trombone). But the trombone is definitely harder to play well for me than the euphonium. The tuba, even though the mouthpiece is bigger (I use a Wick 3XL on the recommendation of Gary Merrill), is easier for me in some respects than the trombone, which I play much more.

While I agree that the airstream similarities make tuba and euphonium a good double, I found that playing too much tuba tended to make my euphonium sound too dark and dull. I’ve actually found that the optimum double for me is bass trombone. Very similar blow to euphonium, and the unforgiving nature of the bass trombone gives me discipline in articulation and makes me sound better on Euphonium.

Don

[John Morgan]

While I agree that the airstream similarities make tuba and euphonium a good double, I found that playing too much tuba tended to make my euphonium sound too dark and dull. I’ve actually found that the optimum double for me is bass trombone. Very similar blow to euphonium, and the unforgiving nature of the bass trombone gives me discipline in articulation and makes me sound better on Euphonium.

Don

I actually wasn't thinking of bass trombone when I said tuba was easier for me than trombone. However, in really thinking about the bass trombone, which I play full time in one of the orchestras I am in, I find that overall it is quite a bit easier than tenor trombone, which I play full time in another orchestra. I don't have all of the trigger technique that I want (probably from not growing up on trombone) and my real low range where bass trombonists shine is not where I want it either. Probably mostly from not playing and practicing it a lot. But I agree with Don that the bass trombone and euphonium are quite similar blows. After playing the tuba, which I don't play much at all, I don't have any trouble getting my euphonium chops and sound back. But I don't play that much tuba to really mess up my euphonium sound. The switch back to euphonium from tuba or either type trombone is easier than going the other way. The most difficult switch is euphonium to tenor trombone.

[KevinInGeorgia]

A LONGTIME Doubler..

I'm a LONG time Doubler.. I'm mainly been a Trumpeter my Whole life but have doubled on everything from French Horn to Eb Tuba...
In my Experience I've always found it Easier to go from Largest Mouthpiece to Smaller Mouthpiece.. In one Brass Choir Concert years ago.. I started on Bb Trumpet, then went to Bass trumpet, then Pplayed Eb Trumpet and ended the concert on Piccolo Trumpet... I commonly use the bigger horns (Euphonium and Bass Trumpet) to help me keep my chops loose..

[djwpe]

I actually wasn't thinking of bass trombone when I said tuba was easier for me than trombone. However, in really thinking about the bass trombone, which I play full time in one of the orchestras I am in, I find that overall it is quite a bit easier than tenor trombone, which I play full time in another orchestra. I don't have all of the trigger technique that I want (probably from not growing up on trombone) and my real low range where bass trombonists shine is not where I want it either. Probably mostly from not playing and practicing it a lot. But I agree with Don that the bass trombone and euphonium are quite similar blows. After playing the tuba, which I don't play much at all, I don't have any trouble getting my euphonium chops and sound back. But I don't play that much tuba to really mess up my euphonium sound. The switch back to euphonium from tuba or either type trombone is easier than going the other way. The most difficult switch is euphonium to tenor trombone.

i agree with you, John, that tenor trombone is a less natural double than bass trombone or tuba. But now that I’ve been playing a bunch of alto trombone, I find tenor trombone easier. I also try to play all trombones and euphonium daily. Alto kind of feels like euphonium up high. The more I switch, the easier it gets.

Two quotes for you:

1) Doug Elliot wrote in Trombone Chat that playing bass is like riding a bicycle uphill, tenor is like riding on level ground, and alto is like riding downhill.
2) Demondrae told me once about playing trombone, English baritone, and Euph, “I just blow hard, and the instrument pushes back and tells me to back off”

Don Winston

[ghmerrill]

1) Doug Elliot wrote in Trombone Chat that playing bass is like riding a bicycle uphill, ...

From the other Doug's (Yeo) web site ...

My teacher, Edward Kleinhammer (retired bass trombonist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) once told me this true story about doubling:

One day a well known trombonist from a major orchestra came into my studio carrying two instruments in his hands.
-- "What do you have there?" I asked.
-- "Why, these are my tenor and bass trombones," came the reply.
-- To which I replied, "Young man, those two horns are like two women. They will fight you and they will fight each other until you finally decide on one of them!"

At some point in his writings (I can't seem to find it right now) Yeo also remarks that a bass trombone wasn't designed to be held by a human.

[John Morgan]

...At some point in his writings (I can't seem to find it right now) Yeo also remarks that a bass trombone wasn't designed to be held by a human.

This one I have to agree with, Gary. After laying off my bass trombone for a few months (usually during the May-Sep time frame), when I start back with it, it is like picking up my motorcycle to play. But, after a couple weeks and a few hours back on the horn, it settles down and is more like picking up the TV to play. And when you have to use both valves a lot, really awkward...

[ghmerrill]

It took me about 6 months of trial & error and some physical modifications to adapt my bass trombone TO ME (one of Yeo's primary strong recommendations). This involved installing a Bullet Brace left hand/thumb support (adding a wine cork to it to better fit the web of my left hand) and then adjusting and readjusting it, removing the finger ring under the receiver and soldering a finger hook (actually, a French Horn thumb hook) to the other side of that brace, and shortening and bending the 2nd valve lever and replacing the oversize "plate" on it with an old 5 centime French coin (more effective, more comfortable, and oddly elegant).

Since these modifications affected one another, there was a lot of "try it and change it" going on. But in the end I had a very comfortable instrument that I can play indefinitely without left arm or hand strain -- mostly because it achieves neutral balance in my hand and I don't have to worry about "holding it up" or orienting it with muscle power.

Of course, one reason I decided on the $500 Schiller bass trombone was so that I could do all this without worrying about messing up a really nice horn. Having done it, I don't seem to want a really nice horn. It probably cost me an extra $300 to do all that (including a lead pipe -- since I fairly quickly had the stock one pulled and replaced it with something better -- which also took some experimentation).

Since I never had a trombone lesson and never played tenor, I simply began with the attitude of "It's a bass trombone, and those valves have a reason." Consequently, I use the valves heavily and only use 6th and 7th positions when it's really called for. I find that now I use the Gb (it's an independent valve horn) a LOT -- more than the F valve -- and I'll use the D horn to make various passages easier without thinking about it. I think that's all a bit unconventional, but it's not unique and is common among a certain "school" of bass trombonists. It also helps with my shoulder arthritis -- which doesn't seem to care much for 6th and 7th position. While the valves aren't the best in the world, they're perfectly okay, and the tone quality with them is excellent (in part because of the DE mouthpiece and the better lead pipe).

[franz]

I mainly play euphonium in various wind band and for a couple of years the tenor trombone in the Tramline bigband. I wanted to learn the coulisse trombone about twenty years ago, but until I joined the bigband I didn't have the opportunity to play it and therefore it was almost unused. I never imagined I would play the 1st trombone in a bigband: at the beginning I had a little bit of difficulty, but now I can manage fairly well. I had to change the approach and the emission respect to the euphonium, but I would say that it is easier for me than the baritone, which I find more difficult regarding the emission.

[John Morgan]

I mainly play euphonium in various wind band and for a couple of years the tenor trombone in the Tramline bigband. I wanted to learn the coulisse trombone about twenty years ago, but until I joined the bigband I didn't have the opportunity to play it and therefore it was almost unused. I never imagined I would play the 1st trombone in a bigband: at the beginning I had a little bit of difficulty, but now I can manage fairly well. I had to change the approach and the emission respect to the euphonium, but I would say that it is easier for me than the baritone, which I find more difficult regarding the emission.

Franz: How are you doing with this virus thing? I know Italy is really getting hit hard.

"coulisse trombone" = slide trombone

Help me a little with your use of the word "emission" please.

[ghmerrill]

Help me a little with your use of the word "emission" please.

As someone who once had experience working in a French group, allow me to suggest "breath control".
Or alternatively, possibly the closest single word may be "projection".

[BDeisinger]

When I taught school I picked up the cornet a lot. Used to play along with the students. Also I did clarinet and left the euphonium at home. Never had any problems then but who knows. I had Bell's Palsy and sure if today I could manage the small mouthpiece. (I'm almost there with your age too) I just did a bass trombone solo for the church streaming on Sunday. Actually did a good job. First time on bass for a solo. I have a Jupiter XO and really has a sweet sound so that's why I used that horn. Like John Morgan, I actually enjoy playing the bass. I bought it after selling my Conn thinking I would never play it again because I couldn't get enough wind. After valve replacement (on me not the horn) the breath came back. So I got a good price on the Jupiter. I'm finally getting around on the trombone better than I ever expected. Try the trumpet is my advice.