What is a PRO Horn?

[Jonathantuba]

NOTE: This comment was made elsewhere, and I copied it to this new topic so we can discuss the general question.

Hey everyone,

I have heard different details about this instrument. My questions are if instrument an actual professional model, or is it a semi-professional model. Is it a pro model like a Yamaha Neo or a semi-pro model like a JP 374? Also anyone who has played this horn, how does it play compared to a top of the line pro model horn?

What is a professional horn? It is surely one that is suitable for use by professionals which the new Sinfonico most certainly is - it has been tried out by top professionals. In fact the less expensive Dolce is used by professionals, in the Cincinnati Symphony no less for example.

The Sinfonico is also all individually handmade from sheet brass, which puts it nearer to an Adams than a production made Yamaha Neo or JP374. In other words this is a euphonium to comparable with those 3-5 times the cost. It is made in a completely different workshop to the previous Dolce - in Wessex new high-grade workshop by craftsmen which just build for Wessex to our demanding standards.

As said above manufacture has been interrupted by the Coronavirus. The Sinfonico already made are I believe all sold, so we have got to wait for production to resume to get more manufactured. Once we have a timeline, I will make an announcement.

[davewerden]

There is no manufacturing definition of a "pro" horn that I am aware of. In some cases, company XYZ would say their top models are pro horns, regardless of price point. In the case of Adams, they only shoot for pro horns (not counting their marching brass line).

No doubt if a professional player uses XYZ, it can be called a professional horn. Looking at the venerable Yamaha 321, most members on this forum would call it a mid-level or upper-student horn. But many pro jazz players have used, or still use, that model. And it has shown up fairly often for orchestra work, when the player is a trombonist in the orchestra and needs a euphonium now and then. (The 321 tends to satisfy trombonists because of the way it blows, IMO, but for whatever reason, it works in their professional settings.)

A horn like the Sinfonico may very well satisfy some top service band players or top brass band players. Time will tell. Based on the prototype I played and the improvements I think Wessex has made, the Sinfonico is worthy of consideration. It's all a matter of whether it satisfies the player.

Doc Severinsen played a Getzen Eterna trumpet for a number of years, although it was not considered in the same strata is Benge or Schilke at the time. But he was the very definition of a pro player. (Many of us long-term Doc fans believe he sounded the best on this horn, FWIW.)

In an ideal world, for any horn to have widespread pro use, it needs to do more than play well. It needs to stand up to the rigors of hard use and must be repairable (including having a reasonable channel to repair parts). I suppose from that standpoint, the only pro euph is the Willson because it is built like a tank and will probably take the most abuse of any common top brand. And Besson would have been out of the running for a while, at least, (not sure about now) because of notoriously bad parts availability.

There! That should get the conversation going!

[tbonesullivan]

When this gets asked in the Trombone forum, many will point to Doug Elliott, who before becoming a foremost expert on embouchure's as well as a custom modular mouthpiece maker, was a professional trombone player in the Airmen of Note. He won that position playing on a Yamaha "student" model YSL-354. I will also point out that many of the instrument models that were considered "top of the line pro" are now almost considered student horns in some areas.

[MarChant]

Not Euphoniums, not even Brass, not even Wind instruments, but still...an interesting test:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the...s-and-new-ones

If professional violinists can't distinguish newly made instruments from the - supposedly superior - antique Stradivarius, and wine connaisseurs can't taste the difference between cheap booze and expensive wine, how about a similar test with Euphoniums?

[davewerden]

Not Euphoniums, not even Brass, not even Wind instruments, but still...an interesting test:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the...s-and-new-ones

If professional violinists can't distinguish newly made instruments from the - supposedly superior - antique Stradivarius, and wine connaisseurs can't taste the difference between cheap booze and expensive wine, how about a similar test with Euphoniums?

I posted a link to a similar article/comparison in my blog:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...ld-Instruments

I believe in both articles, the discussion compared a Strad with new instruments that were top-line (i.e. expensive). That is not quite what we are discussing.

But it is interesting nonetheless.

[Jonathantuba]

This comparison test remind me of a blind comparison conducted in US university of several brands of euphonium to which Wessex contributed a Dolce. Neither the players or listeners knew the identify of the euphonium and had to mark such things as tone, intonation and for the player ease of response. The Dolce won over all the high cost euphoniums. I don’t remember all the brands concerned, but know the popular Besson came last. Unfortunately (at least for Wessex) the results of the blind comparison were never published, although I do have a draft of the paper somewhere.

[MikeS]

Adolph Herseth, the former principal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony, once said something to the effect of, “You can call yourself a professional musician if you are the only one in the room that knows you are having an off day.” He also said, “ You could blindfold me and blindfold the audience and hand me a Bach and a Bundy. I would be able to tell the difference but the audience would not.”

The point I’m trying to make is that a “pro” horn is whatever a professional chooses to use to make the sound in their head come out the bell. I have a Yamaha 321 that I bought as a demo from Schilke’s shop back in the early ‘70’s. It was a demo because James Gilbertsen had used it for a couple performances of “Ein Heldenleben” with the CSO. I think it’s a pretty good bet that nobody left Orchestra Hall disappointed that he hadn’t used a Besson compensator.

Rich Matteson liked the 321. Henry Charles Smith liked the King 2268. They got paid to play them. I would pay to hear Brandon Jones play an Olds Ambassador. If a horn makes it easy for you to make music the way you want to make it, buy it and play the pudding out of it. Whether someone else thinks it is a “pro” horn should be a very, very small part of the equation. That’s my opinion, which you are welcome to take or leave.

[davewerden]

Adolph Herseth, the former principal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony, ...said, “ You could blindfold me and blindfold the audience and hand me a Bach and a Bundy. I would be able to tell the difference but the audience would not.”

I LOVE that!

I have a Yamaha 321 that I bought as a demo from Schilke’s shop back in the early ‘70’s. It was a demo because James Gilbertsen had used it for a couple performances of “Ein Heldenleben” with the CSO. I think it’s a pretty good bet that nobody left Orchestra Hall disappointed that he hadn’t used a Besson compensator.

I heard that horn! The CSO toured in CT and played near the CG Band's home, so Tucker Jolly and I went to the concert. I can't recall the piece right now, but it had a nice euphonium solo (I didn't know the orchestra rep well at that point). I talked to the player after the concert, assuming he had a Besson. I was quite surprised when he told me he played a Yamaha! The sound was enormous in the hall, and of course he played the solo perfectly.

Oh, and I've only seen/heard Henry Charles Smith using a Conn Connstellation. Did he previously use a King? He talks about the Conn in this article:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/content...-Charles-Smith

[MikeS]

Dave said:

Oh, and I've only seen/heard Henry Charles Smith using a Conn Connstellation. Did he previously use a King? He talks about the Conn in this article:

Yeah, I you are right there. The mind plays tricks with you sometimes with 45+ year old memories.

[adrian_quince]

Cynically, a "pro horn" is what a non-professional buys when he wants the horn to do the work for him.

If I were going to pick a euphonium model that had made the most money for the most people, I'd go for the Yahama 321. There are a lot more paying gigs for a trombonist who can double on euphonium than a full-time euphonium player.

[mbrooke]

A pro horn is one that gets paid when it performs!

Mike

[John the Theologian]

Reminds me of the joke that was told in Greek exegesis class when I was in seminary: a pronoun is a noun that plays for money.

[lzajmom]

Reminds me of the joke that was told in Greek exegesis class when I was in seminary: a pronoun is a noun that plays for money.

If this was Facebook, I'd give this a "Haha" react. It seems silly to make a separate post just to show appreciation of a pun, but for lack of a React option... thanks for the laugh today.