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Thread: Playing flat with tuning slide fully in

  1. #1

    Playing flat with tuning slide fully in

    TLDR early advanced player using a good instrument that others can play in tune and play flat in my lower/middle range beyond what is lippable, looking for advice.

    I'm really struggling to play in tune. It might be two separate issues? There's the usual low notes flat, high notes sharp that you would expect on a Besson. The other issue is that it is just tuned too flat overall even with the tuning slide fully in and a mouthpiece that sticks out a normal amount. These combine to be 40 cents flat on the lowest 3 harmonics (treble/transposed pitches- C, C, G) if I play as relaxed as I like to play. It's slightly sharp on the 5th and sharp but just about manageable on the 6th. It's bad enough that it's easier to tune myinstrument to A than Bb in a cold room. Any conductor I play under picks up on the issue on (Bb treble) mid stave F and G within the first rehearsal even when I'm trying to lip those specific notes up. I'm nowhere near as consistent as I should be either, with it varying day to day but always an issue.

    I played baritone for 10 years then moved to euphonium 18 months ago. For details, I went from a be955 + 6BS --> 967 + 6BL 1 year --> 967 + 4AL 6 months. The mouthpiece jump has gone well for other aspects of my playing but probably isn't helping things here?

    It hasn't improved in 6 months and I'd like to think I'm otherwise a reasonably competent player given that I play 5-10 hours a week and have 10 years of experience. For a reference, with some effort, I'm able to play a sovereign baritone with the tuning slide fully in within 5 cents whilst looking at a tuner on all notes in the usual range. I would still like a little more room to allow me to play more relaxed, tune when it's cold, or in a sharp ensemble. I have also had issues with other baritones in the past.

    Any ideas, or similar experiences?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    2,368
    Have you had anyone else play your horn? Do they have the same problem? That might be a good clue as to what direction to go in.

    I did have a Cerveny tuba once where the 2nd valve slide was just a bit flat when all the way in. I never got around to fixing that and just lived with it, but getting the correct pitch on it was just a minor inconvenience.
    Last edited by ghmerrill; 12-10-2023 at 10:24 AM.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #3
    Others play in tune on my horn with the tuning slide an inch out, barring the usual 5th/6th partial issues.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    Quote Originally Posted by Anon View Post
    Others play in tune on my horn with the tuning slide an inch out, barring the usual 5th/6th partial issues.
    Umm ... sorry I missed that -- in your first sentence. Then it's not the horn; it's the player.

    So I'm not sure what your query is. Do you want suggestions on developing a better embouchure? Or are you asking for approval to physically modify the horn even though others have no problem with it? (I definitely wouldn't go in that direction, tempting though it may be.)

    Have you tried different mouthpieces?

    I've had similar problems myself at different times -- particularly when switching instruments among tuba, two euphoniums, tenor, and bass trombone. But in each case I've met the enemy and it was I -- who just needed more work on embouchure development.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    Who cares if someone else can play it differently--it's YOUR horn.

    I have had the MTS shortened on several instruments I've owned over the years.

    I can then play in tune and people to whom I have sold the horns with shortened MTS might just have to pull it out a little more to accommodate their face, sinuses, lips, jaw, etc....or maybe they won't.

    The extremely well-known individual who does my MTS shortening and other work says I'm far from the only person for whom he's done it.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
    Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
    bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
    Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
    Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
    Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    I have had the MTS shortened on several instruments I've owned over the years.
    I don't really disagree with this -- so long as it's not just an expedient decision to avoid developing a reliable embouchure and perhaps discovering flaws in your playing. Because if it is that, then the problem will almost certainly be popping up again in one form or another, and in one place or another in your range. I can think of several times and instruments where I thought "I should just shorten this slide here and fix that pitch problem," but where additional work on embouchure and pitch control solved the problem and was a general improvement to my playing. I'd be reluctant to mask that by a quick jump to the hacksaw -- though my history with instruments may illustrate my love of the hacksaw as well.

    Not that there's anything ethically wrong or morally weak about just slicing off some brass to make some notes come into tune -- and as long as a practical result isn't that other notes then go out of tune. I'm a strong advocate of "make the instrument fit you".
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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