Help identifying besson baritone model

[Tmac]

I recently traded with my repair tech for a besson baritone.

It says besson on the bell with one star and London - Paris - New York

Serial number is 541,xxx
It appears to be a 3/4 size

Any help would be appreciated

I’m new to playing baritone,I’m a trumpet/ cornet player

Thanks

Tim

[bbocaner]

Looks like a (full size) New Standard baritone. The serial number would put it somewhere in the early 1970s. This was their top model baritone at the time, until the introduction of the Sovereign in the 1980s. The bell is a little bit smaller than the later instruments, and they make them with a larger bore these days, but it's not all that different. In my opinion, the biggest challenge with these is the intonation. It looks to be in truly excellent condition!

[Tmac]

Hi Barry

Thanks for the info.

I also have a 1930’s conn 20i which I don’t play it’s cumbersome to hold. But it’s much larger than the besson that why I was thinking the besson was a 3/4

The besson is much easier to put in a stand so it definitely will get played.

[bbocaner]

So, there's some confusion around the terms baritone and euphonium.

In England there are two separate instruments, baritone and euphonium. Your Besson is a baritone. It fulfills a different role in a band than the euphonium: as a downward extension of the tenorhorn section, a strengthener for the trombone or euphonium sections, or as a tenor/baritone solo voice with a different color than euphonium.

We had that same dichotomy in north american bands in the 19th century, but we called the two instruments Bb tenorhorn and baritone. In the 20th century an american-style euphonium (AKA baritone) developed, which was a little smaller bore and bell size than the British-style cousins. This is what your Conn is. Since our bands in the Sousa tradition went a different direction than British bands, we stopped using the smaller of the two instruments. Baritone is the historic American word for euphonium which is confusing since baritone is the British word for the completely different instrument, get it? These days, most American players use the British terminology, but it's still not unusual at all to see people call euphoniums "baritones" nor is it really incorrect as so many people seem to think.

But your Besson is a true baritone in the British sense of the word, which explains the size difference.

Since you said you're a trumpet/cornet player, the baritone is like a cornet while a euphonium is like a flugelhorn. Your Conn baritone/euphonium is like an antique flugelhorn that's smaller than a modern one but it's still a flugelhorn. Does that make sense?

[bbocaner]

It's also not unheard of to see British-style baritones being used as 3/4 size euphoniums for beginners, so there is some validity to your assumption.

[Tmac]

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for breaking it down for me ����

[Sara Hood]

Since you said you're a trumpet/cornet player, the baritone is like a cornet while a euphonium is like a flugelhorn. Your Conn baritone/euphonium is like an antique flugelhorn that's smaller than a modern one but it's still a flugelhorn. Does that make sense?

I am not trying to muddy the waters, but I do need a little clarification here Barry. Correct me if I am wrong here. But the British baritone has more cylindrical piping, so it is more like a trumpet. The British euphonium has more conical piping, so it is more like the cornet. At least in terms of instrument construction, geometry, and tone color/voice. Am I right, or have I gone off the deep end and totally made the question impossible?

- Sara

[daruby]

I am not trying to muddy the waters, but I do need a little clarification here Barry. Correct me if I am wrong here. But the British baritone has more cylindrical piping, so it is more like a trumpet. The British euphonium has more conical piping, so it is more like the cornet. At least in terms of instrument construction, geometry, and tone color/voice. Am I right, or have I gone off the deep end and totally made the question impossible?

- Sara

Sara,

The British baritone's degree of conical tubing and bell taper is more like a cornet while the euphonium is more like a flugelhorn. This is the most apt comparison. The American baritone is more like a euphonium than a British baritone. The closest analog to the trumpet is a trombone.

Doug

[bbocaner]

I am not trying to muddy the waters, but I do need a little clarification here Barry. Correct me if I am wrong here. But the British baritone has more cylindrical piping, so it is more like a trumpet. The British euphonium has more conical piping, so it is more like the cornet. At least in terms of instrument construction, geometry, and tone color/voice. Am I right, or have I gone off the deep end and totally made the question impossible?

The baritone is still a conical instrument, it's just a different ratio of conical to cylindrical than euphonium, and doesn't get as big. It's a saxhorn.

But here's the real muddying of the waters. What if I told you the modern trumpet *IS* a cornet? It has a leadpipe that's a little different and the mouthpiece and especially the playing technique (airflow) are different, but the modern trumpet is just as conical as a cornet is. The historic trumpet is double the length and played higher in the harmonic series, so it's much more cylindrical.

Take a look at this article:

https://www.robbstewart.com/differen...pet-and-cornet

[davewerden]

Speaking of mud... The cornet/trumpet/flugel examples are not perfect, but may help some.

A British baritone is more cylindrical, at least in small ways. First, most have a tuning slide you can reverse and put in the horn. Euphoniums typically have a taper in the curve, so the two legs are different sizes.

When I look at euphoniums, either American or British-style, I see tubing that tapers everywhere possible. The legs of the tuning slides can't taper, of course. And almost all brass instruments do not try to taper the bore in the 1/4" or so between valves. However, every other tube in the open horn tapers.

When I look at my own baritone horn, the tubing just looks more cylindrical. That is to say, while it is possible there is a taper in some of the open runs, it is hard to tell it with the naked eye. I'll get out my calipers and check when I have a chance. But suffice to say that my baritone is very stingy with bore width taper for a LOT of its length!

[Sara Hood]

Thanks for the enlightenment

Your answer and this article did help clear up the question for me. Thank you. I see that I am going to be spending some time reading Robb Stewart's website.

I hope that it did not get too derailed for out original poster. I hope he enjoys his new horn and that it was worth the trade.

- Sara

https://www.robbstewart.com/differen...pet-and-cornet

[Tmac]

Hi Sara

It’s a great thread. I traded an early olds super trombone for it. I gave up trying to play it

My tech is also my friend. So we tend to trade a lot. No cash trades hands.

He can use the trombone. I wanted one of his baritones

Both of us are happy.

Tim

[Sara Hood]

And that is the way friends, making deals, and playing music should be (grin)!

All my best to you and your friend in the New Year. - Sara