4th Valve with Left Hand

[davewerden]

In various discussions we have talked about whether it is more or less awkward to use the left hand for the 4th valve than to use the pinky of the right hand. That is a topic related to the very design of most professional 4-valve euphoniums. It also comes up with people playing 4-valves-in-line instruments like the Yamaha 321. On the latter, some people like to reach around with their left hand to operate the 4th valve.

The little finger is weaker, of course, and is somewhat tied to the 3rd finger (ring finger). But beyond that, I and others have wondered if our preference is simply a matter of what we are used to. When I first switched from my high school King 4v to a Besson in college, it took a while to get used to working 4 with my left hand. But I obviously didn't have a choice on the standard Besson so I got used to it.

I just ran across some interesting new evidence on Instagram. There was a video of Sergei Nakariav (my hero!) playing Rococo Variations on his 4v flugel. He was using his left hand for the 4th valve. Now keep in mind he was a young prodigy on piano until a back injury made it impractical to sit on the piano bench for hours at a time. One would think his little finger is much more facile and has more strength than any of ours, yet he did not use it for the 4th valve. Interesting, no?

[Nbnarcisi]

Back in my college days, when a trumpet major, I owned a Bach 4 valve piccolo and a Getzen 4 valve Eterna flugelhorn. I too, used my left index for the 4th valve. Found it comfortable to use and technique was certainly enhanced as well. My instructor at the time, Natalo Paella found no reason not to.

[DaveBj]

Like we say here in the South, "Whatever cranks your tractor." I played on a 4-in-line Conn for decades, and since '12 I've been playing a 3+1 comp. I can go back and forth almost without thinking. Not that I do that much actual thinking anyway.

[franz]

My experience
Until the mid-80s of the last century I played on a 3- cylinder bonbardino ( a real disgrace) owned by the band. After school and military obligations, with the money earned from my first job, I could to buy a proprietary instrument. At the time there was no internet and this forum, I didn't know anything about euphonium brands and so I relied, for my purchase, on the euphonium owned by the best player of the band, a Courtois 165, 4 uncompensated in line pistons. I played with this for 20 years and I had no particular difficulty in operating the 4th with the little finger ( I never thought I could do it with the left hand). When, in 2007, I bought the Besson Prestige, I had to activate the 4th with the index of the left hand. I took me a while to get used to ( the hardest thing was to find the synchronization between the right hand the left hand). Now I have no problems to play indifferently with both configurations.

[Acemorgan]

I realize this is non-doctrinaire, but I have a British(?)-style configuration with the 4th valve separate from the rest, and I play that valve with the little finger of my left hand. I just like gripping the horn a bit higher up. I was a 4 valve tubist for decades, and never considered the little finger as noticeably weaker than the rest.

[ann reid]

Pulling this up because I’m looking for suggestions regarding thoughts on the best of four in a row non-compensated horns.

Back story- started playing in February of 2019 when arthritis in fingers forced me to give up bass clarinet and harp. Received excellent instruction from June 2019-February 2020. Began a month ago with same teacher.

Purchased a used Wessex Festivo in September 2019. On a whim, acquired a fine uncompensated “vintage” horn in July 2020 and really took off with it. Presently working on Horowitz second movement. This is a horn I will never give up.

My goal is to play very high level wind ensemble and brass ensemble repertoire. I’m not interested in solo work.

I’d like to get ahold of a very good quality 4 valve uncompensated euphonium with the largest bore available, but I also want 4 in line valves, and my years playing bass clarinet did prepare me to use a power pinky.

I know there are not many 4 in line uncompensated euphoniums available, so if anyone can suggest any it would be helpful. Price isn’t as much an issue to me as value to me with all of my playing idiosyncrasies. What’s out there?

[RickF]

Ann Reid wrote; “I’d like to get ahold of a very good quality 4 valve uncompensated euphonium with the largest bore available, but I also want 4 in line valves, and my years playing bass clarinet did prepare me to use a power pinky.

I know there are not many 4 in line uncompensated euphoniums available, so if anyone can suggest any it would be helpful. Price isn’t as much an issue to me as value to me with all of my playing idiosyncrasies. What’s out there?“
————
Not sure but I think the King 2280 has the largest bore for a 4-valve inline Euphonium. Main bore of .580 main circuit and .600 for 4th valve circuit. Also a large sized mpc receiver. The Yamaha 321 has a bore of .571 and .610 with a tenor size (small) mpc receiver.

- - edit - -
Correction: A Willson 2704 (4 valve in-line non-compensating) has a bore of .591 with the 4th valve further back to make for an easier reach. Don’t remember the bore of the 4th valve circuit.

[TheJH]

I had to use a 4v in-line instrument for 2/3 weeks when my main euph was in for maintenance, and I HATED it. Mainly because I am used to holding my euph while sitting down instead of putting it on my lap because my torso is quite big, and I practice while standing. So I either had to use the 4th valve with my left hand, which caused really bad cramps in my left shoulder and wrist, or use it with my right little finger, which is too short to comfortably reach it, so I couldn't even press it down properly.

All in all, it was impossible to play that thing and I was SO GLAD once I had my own euph back.

[highpitch]

3 & 1 euphs came about for a reason. Over a hundred years ago, even.

Weak pinkys in most players, and your left hand was already there, holding the horn.

DG

[tbonesullivan]

Having played guitar for years now, it really is "the weakest finger", and "the slowest finger". If you're doing trills, bends, etc on a guitar, it's the one finger you don't use. It just doesn't work as well.

[davewerden]

Adding to the pile, here is a photo of Wynton Marsalis trying a 4-valve picc. Notice (barely visible at this angle) that his left pinky is holding down the 4th valve.

[John Morgan]

...Notice (barely visible at this angle) that his left pinky is holding down the 4th valve...

Seems like it is something closer to his left index? Looks like his left pinky and nearby fingers are holding the horn.

[davewerden]

Seems like it is something closer to his left index? Looks like his left pinky and nearby fingers are holding the horn.

My bad. To much turkey put my brain to sleep!

[Nbnarcisi]

Ann,

I have owned both the King 2280 and Yamaha 321 that Rick makes reference to. For me, the King was far superior to the Yamaha. Has a large bore mpc, produced a huge and totally in tune sound and was very free blowing. Of the two, it’s definitely my choice, keep in mind, I’m certainly no virtuoso.