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Thread: And the winner is . . .

  1. #1

    And the winner is . . .

    I just finished an intonation test on the Dolce, using my three mouthpieces (DW 4ABL, the stock piece that came with the Dolce, and the combination of a Doug Elliott N104 rim and a TT cup), coupled with a large LeFreque plate on the top bow, which is supposed to influence intonation. Six combinations altogether. I measured the pitch on every note from the low Bb to the high Bb, including alternate fingerings. I put everything in a spreadsheet, printed it out, and, and marked out the cells where the pitch was more than five cents off. The column with the greatest number of clean cells won -- the DW, without the LeFreque plate.

    There are still some bad notes. The high open Bb is 15 cents sharp, but 1st valve is only 5 sharp. Lot B is 20 cents flat, but then that's common to compensating horns. Low Bb is 20 cents sharp. There are some other notes that are 5 cents one way or the other, but that can be fixed, with a little lipping. Not bad, all told.

    Obviously, other people's mileage may vary, intonation being a combination of several different factors, including the input from the individual player. But apparently this is what will work for me.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Leadwood, MO
    Posts
    530
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
    I just finished an intonation test on the Dolce, using my three mouthpieces (DW 4ABL, the stock piece that came with the Dolce, and the combination of a Doug Elliott N104 rim and a TT cup), coupled with a large LeFreque plate on the top bow, which is supposed to influence intonation. Six combinations altogether. I measured the pitch on every note from the low Bb to the high Bb, including alternate fingerings. I put everything in a spreadsheet, printed it out, and, and marked out the cells where the pitch was more than five cents off. The column with the greatest number of clean cells won -- the DW, without the LeFreque plate.

    There are still some bad notes. The high open Bb is 15 cents sharp, but 1st valve is only 5 sharp. Lot B is 20 cents flat, but then that's common to compensating horns. Low Bb is 20 cents sharp. There are some other notes that are 5 cents one way or the other, but that can be fixed, with a little lipping. Not bad, all told.

    Obviously, other people's mileage may vary, intonation being a combination of several different factors, including the input from the individual player. But apparently this is what will work for me.
    Nice! Thanks for sharing.
    John 3:16

    Yamaha YSL-630 Trombone
    Conn 15I Euphonium
    Mack Brass Euphonium
    Conn Victor 5H Trombone
    Yamaha 354 Trombone
    Mack Brass 200S BBb Tuba

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
    The column with the greatest number of clean cells won -- the DW, without the LeFreque plate.
    Thanks for the detailed report! It was interesting to me that you had test cases for the LeFreque plate as well, and that it made enough difference to affect the outcome...apparently in a negative way. Can you summarize the intonation differences noted with and without the plate? Were the with/without LeFreque differences similar among the 3 different mouthpieces as well?
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams E3, Denis Wick 4AL (classic)
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  4. #4
    At David's request, here is the spreadsheet. It starts at high Bb and goes down from there.

    Note DW Elliott Stock
    With Without With Without With Without
    Bb 0 "+20 "+15 "+5 OK "+15 "+25
    Bb 1 Ok "+5 "-10 "-5 "+20 OK
    Bb 23 "-20 "-10 X X "-15 OK
    A 2 OK OK "-20 "-15 "-8 OK
    A 12 "+5 "+10 -25 "-10 OK "-5
    Ab 1 "-30 "-5 "-25 "-15 "-5 "-22
    Ab 23 "-15 OK "-20 "-10 "+7
    G 12 "-15 OK "-15 "+15 "+7 "-5
    G 3 "-35 "-10 "-30 "-20 "-7 "-12
    Gb "-15 OK "-15 "-10 "-10 "+7
    F 0 "+10 "+10 OK OK "+7 "+20
    F 4 OK OK "-10 "-10 "-7 OK
    E 2 "-5 OK "-5 "-15 OK "+10
    E 24 X "-7 "-15
    Eb "-5 "+5 "-5 "-10 "+7 "+5
    D 0 "+10 "+5 "+10 OK "+17
    D 12 OK OK OK OK "+7
    D 3 "-10 OK "-5 "-5 "+5
    Db 2 "+5 OK OK "-15 "+10 "+15
    Db 23 "+5 "+15 "+5 "+15
    C 1 "-20 "-10 "-30 "-15 OK "-20
    C 4 "-25 "-5 "-30 "-15 "-10
    B 12 "-30 "-10 "-30 "-30 "-5 "-30
    B 3 "-45 "-25 "-40 "-30 "-20
    Bb 20mm 23mm 21mm 0mm 3CM 23mm
    A "-5 "-15 "-10 "-5 "-5 "-5
    Ab 12mm 0mm 12mm 6mm OK 17mm
    G 12 OK "+5 "+10 OK "+5 OK
    G 3 16mm 0mm 15mm OK 6mm 0mm OK
    Gb OK "+10 "+5 OK OK "+10
    F 0 20mm 0mm "+20 "+20 "+20
    F 4 22mm 5mm 20mm OK 15mm "+5
    E OK OK "+5 OK OK OK
    Eb OK OK OK "-5 OK "-5
    D 12 "+15 "+5 OK "-5 "+5 OK
    D 3 OK OK "-5 OK OK "+5
    Db "+5 "+5 "+15 "+15 "+20 "+20
    C OK OK 15mm 10mm 17mm 2cm
    B "-20 "-20 "-20 "-15 "-15 "-20
    Bb "+30 "+20 "+15 "+10 "+20 OK
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  5. #5
    Thanks, David. That is very interesting. I was expecting mostly 5 cents difference for with/without LaFreque, which one might suspect is margin-of-error territory. But the swings are wider in many cases.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams E3, Denis Wick 4AL (classic)
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  6. #6
    I played with all three plates on my "Schiller" for about six months, and then took them off, and couldn't tell any difference. I didn't do this kind of analysis on it, tho.

    I'm still going to do a check on intonation up and down the scale from time to time.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,155
    I just use one LeFreque plate across the mpc to receiver to add some mass and help solidify that connection. My wife says she can here a bit more volume with the plate attached. I suspect those with an AGR on their lead pipe that wouldn’t work and probably not needed since there’s more mass there already.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    When the Saints Go Marching In (arr. Mashima) at ACB Conference Ft. Lauderdale
    Cell phone video of : El Cumbanchero:

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