Best Euph for Jazz Playing

[Davidus1]

I'm a Rich Matteson fan. (he sure is missed). I enjoy his improvisational ability but also the skills he displayed when he played. Incredible jazz vocabulary, incredible sound and range. Playing on a non-comp Yamaha Euph I think. What are modern jazz improvisers who play Euphonium using? Non-comp or comp euphs? I play tested a Yamaha 321 tonight using a 6.5AL small shank mp. I was comparing it to playing my Mackbrass Euph (642 copy). My range and control were much improved on the Yamaha. I got a much bigger sound on the 642 copy. The small shank mp allowed me to have much increased range and more command over the instrument. I'm sure the smaller bore size helps with that also. I will say that I'm a tuba player that plays Euphonium, so Euph is a second instrument for me. What are your thoughts?

[RickF]

You’re right that Rich Matteson played a Yamaha 321. Wow, what an artist he was may he Rest In Peace. The bore of the 321 is .570 vs .590 (or more) on compensators so its tone is different. I’m pretty sure Jim Williams (Snorlax) plays a 321 for his jazz work so hope he chimes in.

[John Morgan]

I believe David Bandman, who is a MONSTER jazz euphonium player with incredible technique, plays on a Yamaha 321. I saw him play on something like a Besson once just to show he could, but for his jazz I think he prefers the 321. He has incredible range as well.

[davewerden]

Yes, I would agree that something like a 321 is a good choice for jazz.

• First of all, in jazz you don't really want a large sound; it's not characteristic. This is, perhaps, because of the history. I believe the early jazz euphonium players like Gus Mancuso, Chris Kellens, Kiane Zawadi, Betty O'Hara, etc. played on smaller equipment, usually American-style euphoniums.
• Recordings of jazz instrumentals are usually done with close microphones, where a horn with a large sound is a disadvantage.
• And then there is the playability factor, particularly in the high register, where a smaller horn helps.

Our situation is not much different from the world of jazz trombone. I can't think of a jazz trombonist who used/uses a symphony tenor.

[RickF]

Good point about jazz trombonist playing on smaller equip. Art Sares played a King 2B most of the time. He was a giant jazz player who played with Frank Sinatra. Played in Las Vegas for over 20 years.

[Davidus1]

I believe David Bandman, who is a MONSTER jazz euphonium player with incredible technique plays, on a Yamaha 321. I saw him play on something like a Besson once just to show he could, but for his jazz I think he prefers the 321. He has incredible range as well.

Thanks John. I've been checking out Youtube to see him play but couldn't tell what horn he was using. Tremendous player!

[Davidus1]

Yes, I would agree that something like a 321 is a good choice for jazz.

• First of all, in jazz you don't really want a large sound; it's not characteristic. This is, perhaps, because of the history. I believe the early jazz euphonium players like Gus Mancuso, Chris Kellens, Kiane Zawadi, Betty O'Hara, etc. played on smaller equipment, usually American-style euphoniums.
• Recordings of jazz instrumentals are usually done with close microphones, where a horn with a large sound is a disadvantage.
• And then there is the playability factor, particularly in the high register, where a smaller horn helps.

Our situation is not much different from the world of jazz trombone. I can't think of a jazz trombonist who used/uses a symphony tenor.

Dave - I completely agree about not having the large sound. Even Maynard Ferguson in earlier years played on a Baritone horn on more than one album. "Boy with Lots of Brass" and "Swingin my way through College" come to mind. I appreciate the names that you mentioned. I was familiar with Gus Mancuso but not the others. I will check them out.

I do a lot of Big Band playing and play trombone. I agree that traditionally the smaller bore horns are used. I'm currently playing on a .525 bore Yamaha but sometimes use a .500 bore instrument. I am seeing more and more large bore tenor players playing sectional jazz. I do not like that sound for a big band though. Also the Bass Trombones of today are huge in comparison of the Bass Trombones of the Big Band era. It changes the sound. You don't hear the "growl" in the Bass Bone notes with the bigger horns. Just my opinion/preference. I've always wondered what jazz musicians in the 1930s thru the 1950s would think of the large trombones being used today! Slide Hampton played a lot on a King 4B. He also used small bore horns as well. There aren't many other jazz players that I am aware of that have used the large bore as you mention.

[Davidus1]

Good point about jazz trombonist playing on smaller equip. Art Sares played a King 2B most of the time. He was a giant jazz player who played with Frank Sinatra. Played in Las Vegas for over 20 years.

A tremendous player! Bill Watrous played on small bore Bach instruments and early on had an Olds Super. There is a great interview with Bill by Michael Davis on YouTube in his "Bone to Pick" interview series. Really interesting to watch. Frank Rosolino played on a Conn 6H. They were both virtuostic players. Rosolino's suicide and circumstances surrounding it were very tragic. What a terrible thing.

[daruby]

David Bandman played a 321 exclusively until he purchased a Besson 2051 (small bell) Prestige. I know he uses a small mouthpiece (Bach 7 to 12) on the 321 and am not sure what he uses on the 2051.

[Davidus1]

David Bandman played a 321 exclusively until he purchased a Besson 2051 (small bell) Prestige. I know he uses a small mouthpiece (Bach 7 to 12) on the 321 and am not sure what he uses on the 2051.

Thanks Doug. I appreciate the info! He's a tremendous talent.

[Davidus1]

I've not played a "medium shank" Euphonium. Where does the sound fall compared to large or small shank horns? Would it be too large a sound for jazz? I've been a musician for over 40 years and have listened to jazz since I was 12 years old but have never worked on "improvisation". I played professionally in the Army (mostly tuba and bass guitar/upright bass) and 1 year is a semi-professional orchestra but left "professional" playing around 1998 and play purely for enjoyment since. I took several years away from playing while raising my two sons. At this point I will admit I'm self conscious about "putting myself out there" improvising. I'm a decent player but all past experience has either been classical type music or as a section player in either rhythm section or trombone section and the beginning steps of improvisation will be humbling............ Anyone been there?

[daruby]

I've not played a "medium shank" Euphonium. Where does the sound fall compared to large or small shank horns? Would it be too large a sound for jazz?

To be honest, in general, the mouthpiece will be a pretty significant determining factor. When I play a Yamaha 321 with a Wick 4AY, I sound pretty "big" and would not feel bad about playing in any large symphonic group short of a brass band. OTOH, I used to have a Bach 6 1/2AL large shank, whose inner backbore dimensions are identical with the same tenor shank mouthpiece. I played my Besson 967 and had amazing range and facility, but the tone was definitely punchier. I think there is no issue using a medium shank horn. If it is an older Besson (New Standard) or Willson 2900, the bell size is smaller than the newer horns and the choice of mouthpiece and how you approach the horn will be a bigger determining factor.

[Davidus1]

To be honest, in general, the mouthpiece will be a pretty significant determining factor. When I play a Yamaha 321 with a Wick 4AY, I sound pretty "big" and would not feel bad about playing in any large symphonic group short of a brass band. OTOH, I used to have a Bach 6 1/2AL large shank, whose inner backbore dimensions are identical with the same tenor shank mouthpiece. I played my Besson 967 and had amazing range and facility, but the tone was definitely punchier. I think there is no issue using a medium shank horn. If it is an older Besson (New Standard) or Willson 2900, the bell size is smaller than the newer horns and the choice of mouthpiece and how you approach the horn will be a bigger determining factor.

Thanks Doug. I experimented with everything from a 6.5 AL up to small 11C piece and it really did significantly change the sound. Makes sense. Thank you.

[John Morgan]

Yes, I would agree that something like a 321 is a good choice for jazz....

….Our situation is not much different from the world of jazz trombone. I can't think of a jazz trombonist who used/uses a symphony tenor.

I played with a group called Pink Martini while living in Spokane, Washington some while back. The fellow who played trombone in that group, played a symphony sized trombone with F attachment, and I thought at the time how odd that was. I looked them up today and their trombone player is Robert Taylor, and he "may" be the same trombone player from way back when. And the fellow I played with, definitely was playing some jazz and some sort of pop stuff. They had a version of Bolero that was really cool.

And of course you have Chris Brubeck who is a wonderful jazz player on his bass trombone. And many other jazz bass trombone players. But, those aren't symphony tenors.

[John Morgan]

More on Robert Taylor and Pink Martini: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YERviIHG4mU Go to 31:25 for a trombone solo on a big bore tenor. And yes, this is the same fellow I played with about 15 years ago. He is a good classical trombone player too, former principal in the San Antonio Symphony and now asst. principal in the Oregon Symphony.