Best Euph for Jazz Playing

[davewerden]

Back when I played lead trombone in the CG jazz ensemble I was using a symphony tenor. I could do the style just fine, although I did not ad lib. But I thought the horn did not sound quite right, even with the 6-1/2AL I used then.

Mr. Taylor sound just fine, but with a mute it's hard to gauge sound. However, I don't think he was playing in the range I tend to think of for jazz trombone. Those guys often stay at top range so the partials are nice and close and very little slide movement is required as they do some terrific stuff. Check out some of the YouTube clips with transcriptions of the solos. Here is one of Watrous:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-BU24HP2Y

Or Carl Fontana (especially the 2nd half):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAMiVW9jgrA

Frank Rosolino:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hZSgPTQD20

Of course there are many who use the "normal" range more, too.

[58mark]

crazy thought... Look at the wessex tornister euph. rotary valves, incredibly quick and short action. It has a tone that would good for jazz, it's a scream to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU1SWJyf_cM

[John Morgan]

The ultimate Bill Watrous improv solo starting at about 1:43 or so of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_qDQTlZ1oE

First note would be, starting from tuning note Bb, go up to Eb, then go up another octave to Eb above high Bb, then go up another octave to Eb. And he "starts" on that note. This had the trombone world going "gaga" when he played it, and it is still to this day a remarkable solo.

This guy was about the smoothest player ever and nobody, but perhaps Dick Nash, could play ballads better or sweeter. Too bad he is now gone. RIP Bill Watrous.

[Davidus1]

More on Robert Taylor and Pink Martini: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YERviIHG4mU Go to 31:25 for a trombone solo on a big bore tenor. And yes, this is the same fellow I played with about 15 years ago. He is a good classical trombone player too, former principal in the San Antonio Symphony and now asst. principal in the Oregon Symphony.

Nice! Thanks for sharing.

[Davidus1]

Back when I played lead trombone in the CG jazz ensemble I was using a symphony tenor. I could do the style just fine, although I did not ad lib. But I thought the horn did not sound quite right, even with the 6-1/2AL I used then.

Mr. Taylor sound just fine, but with a mute it's hard to gauge sound. However, I don't think he was playing in the range I tend to think of for jazz trombone. Those guys often stay at top range so the partials are nice and close and very little slide movement is required as they do some terrific stuff. Check out some of the YouTube clips with transcriptions of the solos. Here is one of Watrous:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-BU24HP2Y

Or Carl Fontana (especially the 2nd half):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAMiVW9jgrA

Frank Rosolino:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hZSgPTQD20

Of course there are many who use the "normal" range more, too.

Man, it would be nice to have the range and technique of those guys. Watrous, in the Michael Davis interview, talked about being in a hotel room in Denver (I think) when they went to the big Gibson jazz party. Watrous, Fontana and Rosolino were in the hotel room between sets and were trading blues licks. I enjoyed hearing that they were friends and supportive of one another. Incredible players. Watrous mentioned that he seldom went much past 3rd position often when playing fast and in the upper range.

[Davidus1]

crazy thought... Look at the wessex tornister euph. rotary valves, incredibly quick and short action. It has a tone that would good for jazz, it's a scream to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU1SWJyf_cM

I'd like to get a chance to play that and other Wessex horns. My wife, son and I are heading to Chicago this fall and I may see if I can get an appointment to stop by the Wessex location there.

[davewerden]

The ultimate Bill Watrous improv solo starting at about 1:43 or so of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_qDQTlZ1oE

First note would be, starting from tuning note Bb, go up to Eb, then go up another octave to Eb above high Bb, then go up another octave to Eb. And he "starts" on that note. This had the trombone world going "gaga" when he played it, and it is still to this day a remarkable solo.

This guy was about the smoothest player ever and nobody, but perhaps Dick Nash, could play ballads better or sweeter. Too bad he is now gone. RIP Bill Watrous.

He played that piece with our jazz group. He explained that he wanted the lead trumpet to be quite loud on his high F (Eb concert) so it would clear that he (Watrous) was coming in on the same pitch. Here is the live version, without benefit of any studio retakes or editing:

https://youtu.be/eDVOgwbp_3c?t=206

[John Morgan]

He played that piece with our jazz group. He explained that he wanted the lead trumpet to be quite loud on his high F (Eb concert) so it would clear that he (Watrous) was coming in on the same pitch. Here is the live version, without benefit of any studio retakes or editing:

https://youtu.be/eDVOgwbp_3c?t=206

One amazing trombone player, indeed. Thanks for the link, Dave.

[Davidus1]

You may have seen this but I love watching Watrous, Fontana and Rosolino trade licks. In the background I believe is Al Grey with the orchestra.....he could easily have been up there with them trading licks too.

link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns6_-WthPX8

[davewerden]

Thanks, Davidus1 - that was a fun clip to watch!

Speaking of playing high (which they all did in the clip) here is the opening track from Tutti's Trombones: The Sweetest Sounds. At the end, Rosolino goes for a double-high F and darned near makes it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBM...ru3kbmOrBgQ_xL

[Davidus1]

Thanks, Davidus1 - that was a fun clip to watch!

Speaking of playing high (which they all did in the clip) here is the opening track from Tutti's Trombones: The Sweetest Sounds. At the end, Rosolino goes for a double-high F and darned near makes it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBM...ru3kbmOrBgQ_xL

Hey, thanks! I had not heard that one before. What a group of players!

[RickF]

Very impressive playing in these recordings. Wow! Thanks for sharing.

Art Sarses, who I mentioned earlier, played a featured solo with our band several years ago (don’t remember the title) and the last note being played by first trumpet was a ‘D’ above high ‘C’. Art played a cadenza and then came up to match that high ‘D’ played by trumpet. Some of these artists are almost inhuman.

[Snorlax]

Hi...
I was fortunate enough to spend some quality time with Rich, courtesy of Harvey Phillips*, and would play some of Rich's stuff in my lessons.

I do not like playing jazz or pop music on a large-bore compensating horn. For me, it's a matter of a more direct sound that I can manipulate
and inflect more via vowel sounds in my mouth, so I do 90+ percent of my pop & jazz playing on a Yamaha 321. All the rock & jazz stuff on the
Soundcloud are on a 321, and the concertos are on large-bore compensators. I think the highest note anywhere on the soundcloud is an A, and
there are a bunch of notes around that area on some of the other tunes. Additionally, I find the long compensating pistons harder to push as fast
as I might like to.

I could make those notes when I had a Miraphone 5050 and a Demondrae mouthpiece, but I didn't like the sound. Additionally, my nickname
"snorlax" reflects my inherent laziness and unwillingness to work one erg more than I have to. The notes in the upper register are easier to play and more appropriate to pop & jazz on a 321.

Having said that, however, one thing I can't do is use a peashooter mouthpiece. The one I have used forever on my 321 started life as a Denis Wick 5,
with surgery to drill out the throat and backbore. I just kept reaming until I could do what I wanted to do easily enough to suit me. On the compensating horns, I used a Wick 4 or equivalent. I simply have to have room to maneuver my lips inside a mouthpiece, and I can't do that on anything smaller that the 5 I use on my 321. I also like the larger throat & backbore that allows me to really move air through the instrument.

[Rant]The only time I've ever caught any flak for using a 321 is inside the euphonium bubble, as I've mentioned before. A general audience just wants to hear the tune and doesn't care why I use a 321 instead of a Willson and a BB1. Only 2.58% of general-audience people know what a euphonium is.[/Rant]

*I am eternally grateful to Harvey Phillips for encouraging me to do what I wanted to do on the euphonium, and having faith in me, regardless of what horn I played and regardless of what disparaging comments other "name players" might have made.

[Davidus1]

Hi...
I was fortunate enough to spend some quality time with Rich, courtesy of Harvey Phillips*, and would play some of Rich's stuff in my lessons.

I do not like playing jazz or pop music on a large-bore compensating horn. For me, it's a matter of a more direct sound that I can manipulate
and inflect more via vowel sounds in my mouth, so I do 90+ percent of my pop & jazz playing on a Yamaha 321. All the rock & jazz stuff on the
Soundcloud are on a 321, and the concertos are on large-bore compensators. I think the highest note anywhere on the soundcloud is an A, and
there are a bunch of notes around that area on some of the other tunes. Additionally, I find the long compensating pistons harder to push as fast
as I might like to.

I could make those notes when I had a Miraphone 5050 and a Demondrae mouthpiece, but I didn't like the sound. Additionally, my nickname
"snorlax" reflects my inherent laziness and unwillingness to work one erg more than I have to. The notes in the upper register are easier to play and more appropriate to pop & jazz on a 321.

Having said that, however, one thing I can't do is use a peashooter mouthpiece. The one I have used forever on my 321 started life as a Denis Wick 5,
with surgery to drill out the throat and backbore. I just kept reaming until I could do what I wanted to do easily enough to suit me. On the compensating horns, I used a Wick 4 or equivalent. I simply have to have room to maneuver my lips inside a mouthpiece, and I can't do that on anything smaller that the 5 I use on my 321. I also like the larger throat & backbore that allows me to really move air through the instrument.

[Rant]The only time I've ever caught any flak for using a 321 is inside the euphonium bubble, as I've mentioned before. A general audience just wants to hear the tune and doesn't care why I use a 321 instead of a Willson and a BB1. Only 2.58% of general-audience people know what a euphonium is.[/Rant]

*I am eternally grateful to Harvey Phillips for encouraging me to do what I wanted to do on the euphonium, and having faith in me, regardless of what horn I played and regardless of what disparaging comments other "name players" might have made.

I missed this post. Very much envy you with getting time with Rich Matteson. That must have been incredible. I've admired his playing for many years. He is missed! Harvey Phillips was also "one of a kind". I didn't know him well but wrote him a letter when I was in High School. I received a very nice hand written reply from him and I was amazed by that. I was able to see him in concert in Trenton, NJ in the early 90s. He was a fine person and a fine player.

I agree that I like the sound of a smaller bore for jazz. it fits much better in my opinion.

[John Morgan]

I've not played a "medium shank" Euphonium. Where does the sound fall compared to large or small shank horns? Would it be too large a sound for jazz? I've been a musician for over 40 years and have listened to jazz since I was 12 years old but have never worked on "improvisation". I played professionally in the Army (mostly tuba and bass guitar/upright bass) and 1 year is a semi-professional orchestra but left "professional" playing around 1998 and play purely for enjoyment since. I took several years away from playing while raising my two sons. At this point I will admit I'm self conscious about "putting myself out there" improvising. I'm a decent player but all past experience has either been classical type music or as a section player in either rhythm section or trombone section and the beginning steps of improvisation will be humbling............ Anyone been there?

I read this comment a while back and meant to post a brief reply. I never played trombone growing up, it wasn't until later in life that I picked it up. A lot of my trombone playing is with orchestras and brass quintets. But, I have spent a good amount of time playing trombone in big bands, too. I love playing big band ballads. I have played lead mostly, although I do not improvise. I totally missed that lesson in life growing up, no big bands or jazz in any of the schools I went to, plus I only played baritone/euphonium. So, I have messed around a little using Band in a Box. I was going to suggest this, as a way to sort of ease in and get your legs with the world of jazz. I think there is something else called Garage Band or something like that. With these programs, you can enter in chords and pick from many different types of accompaniments and instruments. You need some MIDI gear usually or sound modules. I have a Yamaha Disklavier piano (with MIDI capability) and a Yamaha MU50 Tone Generator. And some nice speakers. Once set up, you can loop your music to play endless jazz solos in any key, tempo, style, etc. you want. This truly is a good way, along with listening to as much jazz as is humanly possible, to get started. If you are fortunate to be around where there are some community big bands (sometimes offshoots of community bands), many times they tolerate folks who are trying to get their jazz chops going. I know at my age that the train has definitely left the station, and I will be no jazz phenom, but I do try to get a little better at improv occasionally. And it is kind of fun when it is not totally humiliating.