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Thread: 3rd valve use

  1. 3rd valve use

    Hi Friends, what are your thoughts on the third valve being used alone as opposed to 1 and 2? I’ve always been taught to use 1 and 2 and never use the 3rd valve alone but yet I see so many of the pros doing it

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hidden Valley, AZ
    Posts
    643
    Gets a better in-staff G on my Besson.

    DG
    3 notes and the truth.

    1966 Besson 181 highly modified New Standard, early model Wick 4AL
    1918 Hawkes & Son euph 3&1 original
    1917 Conn C/D/Eb mellophone original
    1915 York Bb tenorhorn original, Bach 5GS

  3. #3
    In a slow passage, if it's in tune, go for it, especially if it makes things easier.

    In a fast passage, I would use it, if it makes the fingerings easier. I may catch some flak for this, but I don't think intonation on one note will matter much in a fast passage. Unless it's really off, only the sharpest ears are going to catch it anyway.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  4. #4
    I am in the "use what works" camp. For me the deciding factor is whether I need the 3rd slide to be longer for 23, and if that makes it too long for 3 alone on concert G (or D).

    FWIW, I like the response and sound clarity of 3 better than 12.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams E3, Denis Wick 4AL (classic)
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  5. #5
    Same here. Depends on intonation, tuning, response, sounds, resistance... I often use 3rd valve for my A below the staff (TC) in FF passages because I can just put a bit more air through it and be just that little bit louder without having to blow through too much resistance.
    Willson 2960TA Celebration
    1979 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Globe Stamp)
    Mouthpiece: Denis Wick 5AL

  6. I was actually just reading the article on page 25 of this pdf last night: http://fac.hsu.edu/bucknej/hbm/Brass...%20-%20HO2.pdf. Charlie Geyer talks about the inherent problems of the 1&2 valve combination, as well as other items relating to intonation.
    JACE VICKERS, DMA
    Assistant Director of Bands
    Assistant Professor of Low Brass
    East Central University

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,124
    I always use 3 for concert 'G' (treble clef 'A') in the staff as my M5050 is really sharp with 1-2 for that note. For B natural (5th partial) above that note, 3 is flat for me so 1-2 is what I use.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    When the Saints Go Marching In (arr. Mashima) at ACB Conference Ft. Lauderdale
    Cell phone video of : El Cumbanchero:

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Leadwood, MO
    Posts
    520
    I use it often! If it works, why not. I use it regularly on tuba as well.
    John 3:16

    Yamaha YSL-630 Trombone
    Conn 15I Euphonium
    Mack Brass Euphonium
    Conn Victor 5H Trombone
    Yamaha 354 Trombone
    Mack Brass 200S BBb Tuba

  9. #9
    Some considerations:
    the brass instruments are essentially a tube equipped at the two ends of a bell and a mouthpiece, with which the sounds of the harmonic series can be emitted based on the length of the tube itself. With the invention of the valves it was possible to obtain all the notes by increasing the length of the original tube by adding additional sections of tubes. In equal temperament for each half step about 6% of the original pipe must be added. The additional traits are calculated so as to obtain the following values (in cent ):

    2°----------half step-------100 cent
    1°----------2 half steps----200 cent
    3°----------3 half steps----300 cent
    1°-2°------3 half steps----290 cent
    2°-3°------4 half steps----384 cent
    1°-3°------5 half steps----467 cent
    1°-2°-3°--6 half steps----546 cent

    From here it can be seen that the combinations of several valves increasing intonation (this has been partially solved with the compensation system- see the description by Dave Werden ). In choosing which valve to use to obtain the various notes, it is necessary to consider in which part of the harmonic series we find ourselves. For example if I play an A (four partial, treble clef) with 1°-2° it will be sharp, wile with 3° it will be right, while for a C# (fifth partial) with 1°-2° it will be right, while with 3° it will be flat. So to get an F with 1° (sixth partial, very sharp in all brass instruments), using 1°-3°( seventh partial, usually unusable because very flat) it will be right because the two valves together add less bore than necessary to obtain 5 half steps. ( In brass instruments the harmonic series is: fundamental, 2°, 4°, 8°, partials are right, 3°, 6°, 9°, 12 partials are sharps, 5°, 10°partials are flats, 7°, 11°, 13° partials are very flats, usually not usable).
    Concluding there is no obligatory positions for all notes: it depends on the instrument, on its position in the harmonic series, on how the slides are sets etc. Then, in my opinion, music should not be interpreted as a succession of 100% accurate sounds (equal temperament is a compromise of intonation), but it must express feelings, moods, give emotions, otherwise this can be done by a robot (some time ago I saw a robot, I believe made by Yamaha, that played a trumpet) ,but it was a succession of notes without any expression.
    Last edited by franz; 08-16-2019 at 06:43 PM.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Sturgis, South Dakota
    Posts
    935
    I want to audition for the U.S. third valve vs. first and second valve competition. Shouldn't this topic be somewhere like euphonium-misc or performance and practice - tips and advice rather than under the Euphonium Auditions section? Just wondering....
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

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