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Thread: 3 + 1 vs. 4 Inline (valves)

  1. Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSchott View Post
    Perhaps I was not clear. Valve front euphoniums with upright bells are an anomaly. In that context they are barely worth discussion academically. Valve front horns with front facing valves are far more common and are usually beginner horns or used in marching bands. When marching it’s far easier to balance a horn with front valves than upright. You use the crook below and to the right of the valves helps to support the horn with the thumb. These are almost exclusively non-compensating horns with 3 valves.
    I don't think I've seen a valve-front compensating horn aside from the Festivo. I have seen a good number of 4 valve front-action horns from Conn over the years of stalking the Baltimore Brass website. But most are definitely 3 valves, and usually bell front as well.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by tbonesullivan View Post
    I don't think I've seen a valve-front compensating horn aside from the Festivo. I have seen a good number of 4 valve front-action horns from Conn over the years of stalking the Baltimore Brass website. But most are definitely 3 valves, and usually bell front as well.
    Marzan (Willson) also have a 4-valve front-valve compensating euphonium, similar to the Festivo. They have upright bells. I think Besson actually made a similar horn for a while, and offered a curved bell (not sure, though).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Marzan (Willson) also have a 4-valve front-valve compensating euphonium, similar to the Festivo. They have upright bells. I think Besson actually made a similar horn for a while, and offered a curved bell (not sure, though).
    Just FYI, Willson no longer shows the 2975 on their website. Not sure if that means itís discontinued.

  4. Interesting! I looked on google, and it looks like Marzan/ Willson made a few different versions of that horn. I don't think the Festivo is a stencil of any of them, though I don't doubt that the Marzan horn was the inspiration.

    I also now see that Willson is making Three valve compensating Euphoniums, which they label as having "3 automatically compensating valves". Seems like an interesting move.
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS - Hammond 11L , Bach 42T - Laskey 59MD, Kanstul 1588CR - Hammond 11ML, Yamaha YBL-612 RII - Faxx 1 1/2G

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSchott View Post
    Valve front euphoniums with upright bells are an anomaly. In that context they are barely worth discussion academically.
    Valve front euphoniums with piston valves and upright bells are unusual. Valve front euphoniums with rotary valves and upright bells are not all that uncommon in certain areas (and Cerveny currently lists several of them). Of course, they're non-compensating, and they aren't really beginner horns.
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  6. The 3+1 system was devised years ago (around 1850 I believe with the advent of the compensating system) as the recognized standard for professional horns. First for military bands it is easier to carry and play on the march. Second naturally you have much better dexterity (and strength) in your left index finger versus your right pinky. I've never figured out why the four across the top still remains out there. If a player decides to get serious about his playing, he has to move to a 3+1 anyway.

  7. Thinking about the 3+1 compensating system, when did people start using main tuning slide triggers in the widespread sense? Yamaha didn't even have them until 2017, and they are usually pretty on top of things. When I first was looking into Euphoniums 5 years ago, I never saw them. Now they are everywhere seemingly. Also on some higher model tubas as well, some of which have little elastic bands all over the valve slides to bring them back to position.
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS - Hammond 11L , Bach 42T - Laskey 59MD, Kanstul 1588CR - Hammond 11ML, Yamaha YBL-612 RII - Faxx 1 1/2G

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by tbonesullivan View Post
    Interesting! I looked on google, and it looks like Marzan/ Willson made a few different versions of that horn. I don't think the Festivo is a stencil of any of them
    The Festivo started out as a copy of a fairly rare Besson front-action model, which apparently pre-dates the creation of the Marzan, but they did quite a bit of customization of the design (and perhaps adaptation to use some of their existing tooling?) as well. I think it's fair to say it's its own independent design, with some heritage in the Besson instrument. Wessex has the instrument they started out with for sale on their web site:

    https://wessex-tubas.com/collections...onium-baritone
    Last edited by bbocaner; 08-06-2019 at 03:56 PM.
    --
    Barry

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by tbonesullivan View Post
    Thinking about the 3+1 compensating system, when did people start using main tuning slide triggers in the widespread sense? Yamaha didn't even have them until 2017, and they are usually pretty on top of things. When I first was looking into Euphoniums 5 years ago, I never saw them. Now they are everywhere seemingly. Also on some higher model tubas as well, some of which have little elastic bands all over the valve slides to bring them back to position.
    I had seen custom one-off fabricated tuning triggers as early as the 1980s and I believe there was a kit available in the 1990s. But of course the Conn Connstellation had one in the 1960s and I think the idea was first tried in the 19th century, although probably not on a euphonium. I think the Besson Prestige was probably the first high-volume factory production use on a "modern" euphonium, that came out in 2002 I believe. From there, other makers saw the value and also started adding it.

    Tuba players, particularly of american style front-action tubas, have a long tradition of manipulating slides while they play to adjust intonation. The models that come with straps on the tuning slides aren't necessarily elastic to bring them back to home position, I believe they are to prevent the player from pulling to far and either pulling the slide off or getting it to the point where it could become jammed.
    Last edited by bbocaner; 08-06-2019 at 04:06 PM.
    --
    Barry

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbocaner View Post
    (snip) The models that come with straps on the tuning slides aren't necessarily elastic to bring them back to home position, I believe they are to prevent the player from pulling to far and either pulling the slide off or getting it to the point where it could become jammed.
    Barry is correct about tuba players using strings on their slides to prevent their slides from being pulled too far. Chris Olka is an excellent example of playing a tuba with these strings. See this video.
    ...
    Last edited by RickF; 08-06-2019 at 07:25 PM.
    Rick Floyd
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