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Thread: Metal Thickness

  1. #11
    If it can be useful, just to give an idea, a few years ago, out of curiosity, I measured the thickness of the bells on my brass instruments with a centesimal caliber that I had available in the factory where I work.
    These are the results:
    Besson Prestige 2052 2007 made in Germany, bell one piece: 0,6 mm ( at the junction point 0,5 mm ).
    Baritone JP Sterling 373, bell two pieces: 0,6 mm.
    Trombone Bach 42 GO, bell one piece: 0,5 mm.


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    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by franz View Post
    Besson Prestige 2052 2007 made in Germany, bell one piece: 0,6 mm ( at the junction point 0,5 mm ).
    Franz, I love it! Whether or not we can compare from brand to brand (to Gary's point) it is simply interesting.

    Can you help me understand what you mean by "the junction"? That seems to mean the metal is thicker near the edge than earlier in the bell, which seems counter-intuitive. Thanks!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams E3, Denis Wick 4AL (classic)
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Franz, I love it! Whether or not we can compare from brand to brand (to Gary's point) it is simply interesting.

    Can you help me understand what you mean by "the junction"? That seems to mean the metal is thicker near the edge than earlier in the bell, which seems counter-intuitive. Thanks!
    By junction I mean the vertical line along the entire length of the bell where the brass sheet is joined, which is then hammered to make it uniform. I assume this makes the thickness thinner at that point.
    The thickness of the slides tubes is 0,5 mm for the baritone and euphonium and 0,35 mm for the trombone.

    https://youtu.be/88FRggewNuU
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    1,984
    Quote Originally Posted by franz View Post
    If it can be useful, just to give an idea, ...
    I'm not trying to be obstinate, but what is that comparison useful FOR? What does it give you an idea OF? What does it provide to you other than just knowing the raw data on thickness? From the discussion I'd be expecting something like "Here are the differences and similarities I measured for a few instruments, and so we can conclude that ...." ???
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I'm not trying to be obstinate, but what is that comparison useful FOR? What does it give you an idea OF? What does it provide to you other than just knowing the raw data on thickness? From the discussion I'd be expecting something like "Here are the differences and similarities I measured for a few instruments, and so we can conclude that ...." ???
    Nothing, someone asked for the thickness of the various brands and I simply provided data: I can say that the thicker the more you can push without sound distortions. My prestige can be pushed to the maximum without having any distortion, with the trombone I have to be more careful. Another consideration for MY Besson Prestige is that it is significantly heavier than all the euphoniums I could try.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  6. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I'm not trying to be obstinate, but what is that comparison useful FOR? What does it give you an idea OF? What does it provide to you other than just knowing the raw data on thickness? From the discussion I'd be expecting something like "Here are the differences and similarities I measured for a few instruments, and so we can conclude that ...." ???
    I would think it's more useful if everything else is equal, so that some type of generalization can be made. Of course this would only really matter if it is a company where you have the options of a thicker or thinner bell. This translates quite well to other musical instruments, where people can become obsessed with materials and things that can be easily measured. It is a lot easier to get this way when you deal with things like modular trombones, which make it easy to swap out one bell for another. I don't really see modular euphoniums or tubas coming anytime soon.
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS - Hammond 11L , Bach 42T - Laskey 59MD, Kanstul 1588CR - Hammond 11ML, Yamaha YBL-612 RII - Faxx 1 1/2G

  7. #17
    It's somewhat handy if you have brand X and like the way it plays and are thinking about ordering an Adams, for which they give you a choice of metal gauge, and would like a starting point.

    There are a lot of different variables other than thickness. But generally I'd say that thicker metal is more consistent over the dynamic range of the instrument and capable of a bigger sound (to an extent) whereas thinner responds more quickly and is more flexible and easier to play (again, to an extent).
    --
    Barry

  8. #18
    I am only an amateur player and, even if I have been doing it for over 50 years, I have several limits compared to some of you who are much better at playing brass than I am, but I can make some considerations: Adams specifies the thickness with which he builds euph, while other brands do not. We have established that the Prestige is 0,6: Besson says that Sovereign differs from Prestige solely by the thickness of the bell. I played with that of my friend who plays with me in the band, a lacquered English made, bell in two pieces: it is much lighter than mine ( I would say 0,5 mm thickness bell ), it is more ready and responsive than my Prestige, the sixth partial is only slightly high, dark sound, a very good instrument but, in comparison, I prefer mine. In 2012, on the occasion of the international competition " Flicorno d'oro" in Riva del Garda ( my band ranked first in the first category) I had the chance to try out the Miraphone 5050 Ambassador at a stand and it made me a very good impression. I recently had the opportunity to try another one and this time it didn't satisfy me: it didn't even seem a distant relative of the one tried in 2012. Of the Adams I tried recently an E3 0,6 yellow brass, which I found fantastic, and a E1 0,6 red brass that I didn't particularly like. I had the chance to try a few other euphoniums, including a York Eminence 4052, a Willson ( I don't remember the model), a Yamaha 642, a Yamaha Neo and a Courtois 167 II: among all these I preferred the sound of the Prestige I bought. Coming soon, as a gift for my retirement, I intend ( wife permitting) to buy a beautiful Adams E3 0,7 yellow brass without trigger which, according to the clues collected in this forum, should be the ideal euph for me.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Sturgis, South Dakota
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by franz View Post
    I am only an amateur player and, even if I have been doing it for over 50 years, I have several limits compared to some of you who are much better at playing brass than I am, but I can make some considerations: Adams specifies the thickness with which he builds euph, while other brands do not. We have established that the Prestige is 0,6: Besson says that Sovereign differs from Prestige solely by the thickness of the bell. I played with that of my friend who plays with me in the band, a lacquered English made, bell in two pieces: it is much lighter than mine ( I would say 0,5 mm thickness bell ), it is more ready and responsive than my Prestige, the sixth partial is only slightly high, dark sound, a very good instrument but, in comparison, I prefer mine. In 2012, on the occasion of the international competition " Flicorno d'oro" in Riva del Garda ( my band ranked first in the first category) I had the chance to try out the Miraphone 5050 Ambassador at a stand and it made me a very good impression. I recently had the opportunity to try another one and this time it didn't satisfy me: it didn't even seem a distant relative of the one tried in 2012. Of the Adams I tried recently an E3 0,6 yellow brass, which I found fantastic, and a E1 0,6 red brass that I didn't particularly like. I had the chance to try a few other euphoniums, including a York Eminence 4052, a Willson ( I don't remember the model), a Yamaha 642, a Yamaha Neo and a Courtois 167 II: among all these I preferred the sound of the Prestige I bought. Coming soon, as a gift for my retirement, I intend ( wife permitting) to buy a beautiful Adams E3 0,7 yellow brass without trigger which, according to the clues collected in this forum, should be the ideal euph for me.
    Franz,

    I know what you mean about "wife permitting" from some of my friends, but my wife NEVER says "no" to me regarding buying a new horn. I am lucky. I have owned 2 Besson 2052 Prestige euphoniums, one of them was not very good, and one was very nice. But my Adams E3 is, in my opinion, better than the Besson. And better (more like different from because the Miraphone was stellar) than my Miraphone M5050, which I really liked (2nd best horn I have owned).

    Here's to your retirement (from what?) and having a "permitting" wife and your future Adams E3!!

    Speaking of my Besson, it had a lousy or almost non-existent high B natural (bass clef). I am right now running through a solo that I will play with our Rapid City Municipal Band next Wed, July 31st. It is called Valtzz! for Euphonium and Wind Band. And it has the infamous high B natural right in the piece. I can do it fine with the Adams!! Yippee!!

    Here is a link to the solo: https://charlesbooker.com/product/va...and-wind-band/ Take a listen, this is a really nice solo for euphonium.

    It is not very well known, as far as I know. The fellow who wrote it (for Matthew Murchison) is Charles Booker, a retired Army Band director. I have played this once before, so this will be my second performance of this very fun to play piece.

    John
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    Franz,

    I know what you mean about "wife permitting" from some of my friends, but my wife NEVER says "no" to me regarding buying a new horn. I am lucky. I have owned 2 Besson 2052 Prestige euphoniums, one of them was not very good, and one was very nice. But my Adams E3 is, in my opinion, better than the Besson. And better (more like different from because the Miraphone was stellar) than my Miraphone M5050, which I really liked (2nd best horn I have owned).

    Here's to your retirement (from what?) and having a "permitting" wife and your future Adams E3!!

    Speaking of my Besson, it had a lousy or almost non-existent high B natural (bass clef). I am right now running through a solo that I will play with our Rapid City Municipal Band next Wed, July 31st. It is called Valtzz! for Euphonium and Wind Band. And it has the infamous high B natural right in the piece. I can do it fine with the Adams!! Yippee!!

    Here is a link to the solo: https://charlesbooker.com/product/va...and-wind-band/ Take a listen, this is a really nice solo for euphonium.

    It is not very well known, as far as I know. The fellow who wrote it (for Matthew Murchison) is Charles Booker, a retired Army Band director. I have played this once before, so this will be my second performance of this very fun to play piece.

    John
    Off course, the high B has been a problematic note to be obtained with certainly on the Prestige, but working on it with the right mouthpiece now comes out beautifully and in tune. It is not a note that is easily found in euphoniums scores, but when it happens you need to be ready and sure not to take a stick. Sometimes certain notes are difficult to obtain because they are rarely played: the instrument is never played on same partials, for example on alternative positions, and the rare times that they are used have a sound worse than that obtained with conventional positions. Sometimes I hold the 4th valve pressed an play with an instrument in F. The first few times is a bit strange, but then it becomes automatic to correct the pitch with the chops and also the sound and the instrument improves gradually that the partials are emitted in the new positions. Try and tell me if this statement can be shared.
    Last edited by franz; 07-23-2019 at 12:34 PM.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

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