FS: Besson Sovereign 955 3-Valve Compensating Baritone Horn

[davewerden]

This is a much newer model of the same baritone I play. It was made in Germany, so quality control should be very good. It is reportedly a very low-mileage horn in great shape, and it includes the new-style Besson case. I think it is priced very well at $2,970!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Besson-BE-9...n/223494605846

[jkircoff]

The Besson baritones I've played are mostly from the mid-90s, and they've been hit or miss in terms of quality. I've heard nothing but rave reviews about the German Bessons, and the price listed is quite good.....and quite a bit cheaper than a new Besson or what's considered to be the current gold standard of British baritones, the Yamaha Neo.

[daniel76309]

I've been looking at this horn for a while. Compared to my Adams E1 euph, my Schiller baritone is what I would call "difficult" to play, i.e. less responsive, more missed notes, more difficult upper register, requires more vigilance to produce good tone, etc. None of this is a big surprise to me, but I can't help but wonder how much of this difference is due to the fact that it is a baritone, and how much is due to the fact that it is an inexpensive baritone. To anyone who may have experience with this, how much better would this Besson be to play, relative to my Schiller? I wish I could test play the Besson, but it is in Arizona and I am in Florida.

[davewerden]

My 955 plays very nicely, and I suspect this one will be better. The Sovereign model offers a nicer sound (IMHO) compared to the New Standard. I just heard from a colleague that the Schiller and Wessex are based on the New Standard.

[daniel76309]

Interesting, thanks! If money were no object...

[bbocaner]

I just heard from a colleague that the Schiller and Wessex are based on the New Standard.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. They are shaped like a sovereign (new standard has a loop that goes over the top of the valve buttons, whereas the sovereign has a loop that goes under the top of the valves) and the bell size is certainly the larger sovereign bell size and not the smaller new standard bell size. It's true that the new standard baritone is a pretty poor instrument. They just didn't put all their best R&D into the "less important" instruments in those days.

I'm not a huge fan of the schiller baritone mostly because the intonation is poor and it just doesn't have a very nice sound, but compared to euphonium even the good baritones absolutely take more effort to sound good on. I think the new german-made 955 is better than the old english-made ones, too -- they made some modifications to the design along the way. But don't expect it to play like an adams E1 euphonium.

[davewerden]

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. They are shaped like a sovereign (new standard has a loop that goes over the top of the valve buttons, whereas the sovereign has a loop that goes under the top of the valves) and the bell size is certainly the larger sovereign bell size and not the smaller new standard bell size.

Visually, I agree! I'm kicking myself for not finding time to test out the Wessex baritone at ITEC. I actually had my own 955 with me, so I could have compared easily enough. It was John Powell who told me about the New Standard basis, although he said something like it was "closer to a New Standard" than to a Sovereign. John had just returned from testing horns at the Wessex factory.

[bbocaner]

I think that the new standard and early sovereigns like yours had the same bore size. The sovereign had a larger bell and different tapers post-tuning slide. I would assume a different leadpipe design as well. And of course the different shape. I believe that when they introduced the 956 with 4-valves they went ahead and made the bore through the valve section slightly bigger so that the extended range wouldn't be stuffy, although the bore by the main tuning slide stayed the same. I think they went ahead and updated the bore on the 955 at the same time to simplify production, so that the same pistons could be used for both models. I've verified this by trying to swap around various tuning slides between an older 955 and a newer one as well as a 956 and 2056.

This may be what he meant by comparing it to the new standard, that it has the smaller bore of the new standard (and original sovereign) not the larger bore of the present-day 955.

I really like the 3-valve wessex baritone! I'm not so crazy about their 4-valve instrument, though.

[daniel76309]

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. They are shaped like a sovereign (new standard has a loop that goes over the top of the valve buttons, whereas the sovereign has a loop that goes under the top of the valves) and the bell size is certainly the larger sovereign bell size and not the smaller new standard bell size. It's true that the new standard baritone is a pretty poor instrument. They just didn't put all their best R&D into the "less important" instruments in those days.

I'm not a huge fan of the schiller baritone mostly because the intonation is poor and it just doesn't have a very nice sound, but compared to euphonium even the good baritones absolutely take more effort to sound good on. I think the new german-made 955 is better than the old english-made ones, too -- they made some modifications to the design along the way. But don't expect it to play like an adams E1 euphonium.

Thanks for the additional info. I find that with effort on the Schiller I can produce what I consider to be a nice tone, but of course have nothing to compare it to, i.e. I don't question that the Besson may well be better. Yes, the Schiller has intonation quirks also. I find them to be "manageable" but alternate fingerings are necessary.

[JakeGuilbo]

I recently played on a newer Schiller and found it was MUCH MUCH better than the Schiller I played on 4 or 5 years ago. Much more open and responsive and with better intonation. So maybe it depends on how old your baritone is. The Wessex 3 valve is pretty cheap and supposed to be super nice. Otherwise I'd save for the Neo.

[jkircoff]

I recently played on a newer Schiller and found it was MUCH MUCH better than the Schiller I played on 4 or 5 years ago. Much more open and responsive and with better intonation. So maybe it depends on how old your baritone is. The Wessex 3 valve is pretty cheap and supposed to be super nice. Otherwise I'd save for the Neo.

I bought a Wessex baritone in 2014 and it was a pretty bad instrument (bad response, stuffy tone, sketchy intonation). I'm not sure if Jonathan has done much to improve it since.

[John Morgan]

I bought a Wessex baritone in 2014 and it was a pretty bad instrument (bad response, stuffy tone, sketchy intonation). I'm not sure if Jonathan has done much to improve it since.

Which one did you get? They have a student model BR12 and a 3-valve compensating model BR140 (and a 4-valve compensating model BR144 which I have not heard much about). I sit next to a lady who bought a BR12, and she "plays" it in the baritone/euphonium section of our New Horizons band. The BR12 is grossly sharp, I know this from playing it and trying to get it somewhat in tune. When she and I play together, it is not music made in heaven. It is painful. I tried may things to get her horn close to in tune. That particular horn I did not like whatsoever. That horn sounds like the description given above by jkircoff. My section mate got the BR12 about a year or so ago. I don't know if that was a bad sample or not. I have not played the BR140, but hear really good things about it (some saying it is the next best baritone compared to the Yamaha Neo).

If jkircoff got a BR140 in 2014 (I don't know when this horn came out), perhaps things have improved since then, but from what I have heard, I think people should at least tryout this horn to see if it works for them. There is a 14 day window to do this and you can send it back for a complete refund if not happy with it, less shipping. That is a pretty good deal.

[jkircoff]

Which one did you get? They have a student model BR12 and a 3-valve compensating model BR140 (and a 4-valve compensating model BR144 which I have not heard much about). I sit next to a lady who bought a BR12, and she "plays" it in the baritone/euphonium section of our New Horizons band. The BR12 is grossly sharp, I know this from playing it and trying to get in somewhat in tune. When she and I play together, it is not music made in heaven. It is painful. I tried may things to get her horn close to in tune. That particular horn I did not like whatsoever. That horn sounds like the description given above by jkircoff. My section mate got the BR12 about a year or so ago. I don't know if that was a bad sample or not. I have not played the BR140, but hear really good things about it (some saying it is the next best baritone compared to the Yamaha Neo).

If jkircoff got a BR140 in 2014 (I don't know when this horn came out), perhaps things have improved since then, but from what I have heard, I think people should at least tryout this horn to see if it works for them. There is a 14 day window to do this and you can send it back for a complete refund if not happy with it, less shipping. That is a pretty good deal.

It is a BR140, and I believe it's one of Wessex's earliest attempts at emulating a British baritone. It's a backup instrument that I lend out to other brass banders in my neck of the woods who need a baritone.

I was an "early adopter" of Wessex instruments when they first came to the U.S., and my experience with their instruments is that of a beta tester to a degree. Their initial location was in Spring Lake, Michigan out of a salespersons house, and it opened in 2013. I purchased their German Rhein BBb 4-valve rotary tuba, and it's been a solid instrument outside of a valve that tends to stick on occasion. I still use it today when a tuba gig comes up. I also purchased a Wessex Dolce trigger model in 2014 that had several problems (Wessex discontinued the variation shortly after I purchased it), and I ended it selling it to a student for a bargain price.

[Sara Hood]

Not the BR140, but close

I have the Baritone that JinBao made and Wessex improved, to make the BR140. If anyone is in the Sacramento, CA area and wants to look me up, I will gladly let them have a blow on it. Not quite the same as test playing the Wessex BR140, but since the two are clones/stencils, it should be close.
- Sara

[SJWSEuph]

I have an early-80's Globe Sovereign 155 and it has very good intonation, as good as my Adams E1 euphonium. I recently played the Schiller baritone that Jake mentioned, and it was a very good match to the Boosey & Hawkes horn, both in intonation and tone. I would like to find a 4-valve baritone that plays as nicely as the 155, because after 50 years of playing with a 3+1 horn, I'm finding the need to go back and retrain muscle memory to use the third valve (which is the least used valve on a 3+1 euph, used mostly for Db and Gb).

-Dave