1+3 vs 4

[Jasoncostello77]

Hi Euphonium friends, I play on a Besson Sovereign and I have noticed recently that my C on the staff and F below the staff (bass clef) are more in tune when played with 1st and 3rd valve and wicked flat when played with 4th valve. Is this a common issue? I know besson has really wonky tuning so I think this could be the main perpetrator of this issue.

[davewerden]

That is not all that unusual. For me I find 13 works a little better sometimes, depending on context. I think I've seen David Childs do the same thing. Whether it works for any player would be a combination of player, mouthpiece, instrument, context, and possible temperature (because sharp/flat tendencies can get a little wacky when the instrument gets quite warm or cold). If it works, don't sweat it!

[58mark]

the first time I saw Steven Mead live I was surprised how many times he used 1-3. I think you have to figure out the context usage.

If your 4th valve C or F is a little flat, that means 2-4 B or E might be right in tune. Good compromise

[ChristianeSparkle]

As Mr. Werden said, it seems to depend on context quite a bit. I've found something similar with my horn too, I've been using 4th on those 2 notes, and 3 for the G on the staff. In the past month, I've noticed that I can use the typical fingering of 1+3 and 1+2 respectively and still get notes that are in tune. But most of those notes are towards the sharp side with around 2 notes that are stubbornly flat.

The only notes that I have to use alternative fingerings to be in tune seems to be the upper ranges, the high Eb especially (1+3 instead of 1).

[bbocaner]

I asked David Childs about his doing this, and he says he thinks it has a little less resistance than 4th valve and he does it with full trigger. I think that if your 1st, 3rd, and main tuning slides are set in the right place, this should be a little bit sharp. But some instruments have tendencies that are a little bit different, especially with some player & mouthpiece combinations.

Have you set the 2+3 combination so that Gb and Dd are in tune? Often players of 3-valve non-compensating instruments will set the 3rd valve a little bit long so that 2+3 combos are flat but so that 1+3 combos are in tune and 1+2+3 are closer.

[John the Theologian]

On my Mack Brass the low B natural is very flat with a 2+4 combination, but is much more in tune with 123. It doesn't seem to make as much difference with the low C if I use 1+3 or 4 alone.

[John Morgan]

On my Mack Brass the low B natural is very flat with a 2+4 combination, but is much more in tune with 123. It doesn't seem to make as much difference with the low C if I use 1+3 or 4 alone.

Now that is unusual! 123 for low B natural is usually grossly sharp! And you say that 24 is very flat? How much are your slides out?

[John the Theologian]

john, only q little bit. Perhaps my ear is deceiving me-- I'm not sure- sicne I haven't really checked it out that much. It's when I do octave warm-up slurs that I seem to notice it the most.

[bbocaner]

It's possible your 4th valve was built too long and needs to be cut.

[davewerden]

I was thinking the same thing as Barry (4th valve tubing too long). Try this:

Play your middle F concert (G in treble) open. Then play it with 4. You should be able to make the pitch with 4 match the pitch with open. If the 4th valve version is too low to match, then for sure the 4th valve slide tube is too long.