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Thread: Doubling on Bass Trombone and Euphonium (Mouthpieces)

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  1. #1

    Doubling on Bass Trombone and Euphonium (Mouthpieces)

    I play the euphonium as my main instrument and have recently picked up the bass trombone for the California Youth Symphony Orchestra. I thought that doubling on bass trombone would be an easier switch than tenor trombone, but then one of my friends said that the mouthpiece I use is too small for the bass. I use a Bach 4G on both instruments. I noticed that I had been having trouble in the lower register on the bass and when I tried some of his larger mouthpieces, everything cleared up.
    Later, I talked to my teacher about this and he said that playing two different mouthpieces would mess up my embouchure and it would be better just to pick one instrument or just double on tenor. I really love the sound of the bass and would like to keep playing it but I'm afraid my euphonium chops would change for the worse.
    Any advice on switching mouthpieces or in general? Thanks!
    Natalie Colegrove
    @misseuphonium

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mscolegrove View Post
    ... one of my friends said that the mouthpiece I use is too small for the bass.
    People use a wide range of mouthpieces for bass trombone. A pretty common one is the Wick 2NAL. It's a bit small for a lot of concert band or orchestra stuff, but can be very good for dance band. So, yeah, I think the 4G may be a bit small to get a good bass trombone sound, and it will make the lower (and valve) registers more difficult.

    Later, I talked to my teacher about this and he said that playing two different mouthpieces would mess up my embouchure and it would be better just to pick one instrument or just double on tenor.
    Hard to decide what to say about this. I'm going to go with "Nonsense".

    I really love the sound of the bass and would like to keep playing it but I'm afraid my euphonium chops would change for the worse.
    Any advice on switching mouthpieces or in general? Thanks!
    Well, you could try it and see how it goes for you. However, if your teacher has already discouraged it, then I expect he'll continue to complain about it and be critical if you go against his advice. Just out of curiosity, what does HE play? Does he play trombone, for example?
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what does HE play? Does he play trombone, for example?
    My teacher is Tony Clements the tuba player in the Symphony Silicon Valley. He plays multiple instruments, but maybe he just doesn't have confidence in the flexibility of my chops.
    Natalie Colegrove
    @misseuphonium

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mscolegrove View Post
    My teacher is Tony Clements the tuba player in the Symphony Silicon Valley. He plays multiple instruments, but maybe he just doesn't have confidence in the flexibility of my chops.
    Tony is a very smart and accomplished musician and teacher. He almost certainly has a reason for advising you the way he did. If it's something you're not trusting yet, it's worth a further conversation with him.
    Adrian L. Quince
    Composer, Conductor, Euphoniumist
    www.adrianquince.com

    Kanstul 976 - SM4U

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrian_quince View Post
    Tony is a very smart and accomplished musician and teacher. He almost certainly has a reason for advising you the way he did. If it's something you're not trusting yet, it's worth a further conversation with him.
    Absolutely. This changes the situation from generic advice offered by a "music teacher" to specific advice from an experienced low brass professional to a particular student. To me it means that he's not suggesting that you NEVER move to doubling on bass trombone, but that AT THE MOMENT your progress in developing your skills would be deterred by doing that. I'd listen to him and delay changes for the time being.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
    As a professional low brass doubler for 50+ years, I have had my share of "experiences" with doubling issues. My college professor said to me: "Find a mouthpiece that works for you on that horn...then wield it into the leadpipe." Being a low brass doubler for many B'dway shows through the years, I have found that the "right tool" for the job...is exactly what the part says it is! Playing a typical walking bass trombone passage for 12 meas....2 meas. rest, put bass trb down, pick up tenor and play lead over saxes, starting on "G" above middle "C" and going up to high "D". I have found that my King SS 3B w/VB 6½AL mpc, Bach Soloist 210 w/VB 4G, and King Duo Gravis SS w/VB Mt.Vernon 1½G, Jin Bao Eb tuba w/Wick 3L give me the "typical B'way" sounds for each particular style that is required in the part.

    I agree with the concept of your embouchure being formed before the rim gets there, because there is very little time, in 2 meas., as your tenor comes flying toward your chops at Mach 1, to think about anything other than "nailing" that trombone lead line, 2 meas. after that "a la George Roberts" bass bone phrase you just laid down. Sometimes there are five or more horn changes in 1 chart. I just finished Disney's "Aladdin", tenor trb: E below the staff to Bb above middle C, bass trb: pedal F# to Gb above middle C. Now that, is a real trombone dance! Oh, yeah, how about "The Lion King": bass trb/tuba double...bass trb pedals driving "The Stampede" and tuba, with a pedal C "fart" at the end of "Hakuna Matata".
    Last edited by flotrb; 10-08-2020 at 04:08 PM.
    flotrb

    Доверяй, но проверяй
    (Trust, but verify)

  7. #7
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    Wonder how your teacher feels about all those guys doubling on euph and tuba (like, uh, Dave Werden). And all those pros who triple on bass trombone and tuba and euph, not to mention every trombonist who doubles on tenor and bass. Pretty sure they don't use the same mouthpiece.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    I’ve recently begun playing a lot of bass trombone. I use a Warburton Demondrae on Euph, and a Shires 1-1/4 MD on bass trombone. I played “Pictures at an Exhibition” with an orchestra, playing Bass trombone, and also played Bydlo on euph and had no issues.

    I find the addition of a bass trombone double has actually helped my euphonium playing, where playing a lot of tuba hurt it.

    Don Winston

  9. #9
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    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    I play euphonium in two bands, I play bass trombone in one orchestra, I play tenor trombone in another orchestra, I play Eb tuba in a brass quintet and other small ensembles. I use a different mouthpiece for each of the instruments. You can play two different instruments with two different mouthpieces. Just takes a little practice, but switching instruments and mouthpieces is something that is not uncommon. But, do use a larger mouthpiece for the bass trombone.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  10. #10
    I'm a big believer in using the mouthpiece that's right for the instrument rather than trying to keep everything with the same size rim. I do like playing rims with consistent shapes and widths, but the rim size I vary depending on the instrument. And, while a 4G would have been a reasonable bass trombone mouthpiece a century ago, it's waaaay smaller than what everyone else is using these days. Heck, even a 2, 1.5, or 1.25 is smaller than what most professional bass trombonists are using for orchestral playing these days.

    I feel like playing different instruments with different size mouthpieces is like cross training. It almost always brings something positive for me, building musculature in ways that practicing on one instrument alone can't.

    However, there's something to be said for what your teacher says. I have the luxury of being an avocational player. I never need to dip into that last 1% that people who are trying to win a professional job or get into a top conservatory have to. If you're trying to get to the point where you can take artistic risks and play extremely musically AND never, ever, ever crack a note, the two mouthpieces will fight each other. That kind of last little bit of consistency with your playing you're only ever going to get if you practice your brains out with a consistent setup.

    But the other thing is this -- as great an instrument as euphonium is, you're limiting yourself musically by a huge amount if that's your only instrument. Some of the very best trombonists and bass trombonists in symphonies and opera orchestras were originally euphonium players. There are just so many more opportunities in a variety of styles of music that you get on trombone that you just can't have on euphonium. It's well worth your time.
    --
    Barry

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