Contemplating 1st purchase for our student son (Intermediate+ level player)

[EyeInSky]

I've read that people seem to think that Wessex is closer to the Yamaha while the JP to Besson. It can be see based on their valve caps too, I think? I'm unsure.

Well... since I have not personally heard either the Yamaha or the Besson, I could easily switch my interpretation and not feel bad :-)
The Wesson had a softer "sweet dark" tone, whereas the JP seemed to have a slightly stronger tone that was still "rich and warm" yet not overly bright.

I am a professional musician. I think I have a pretty good ear. However, I could NEVER EVER test the intonation of a horn without a tuner (usually two tuners in fact to make sure). If you did all of your tuning just by ear and listening, then unless you have perfect pitch, you intonation test is not worth much, sorry to say. You need a tuner to help in adjusting the slides on the horn BEFORE you start any intonation test. You should check out Dave Werden's Intonation Chart: http://www.dwerden.com/Intonation/ You may be surprised about the intonation comparison between the JP374 and Wessex Dolce.

To me, the number one thing to look for in a horn is the sound. That would be about 75-85% of my opinion of a horn. Without a good sound, nothing else makes any difference. So, your discussion on the tone and sound would be the single most important thing for me. And a good sound is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. So, no one can say what you like is wrong, good, bad, etc. But I would have a couple of really experienced players along to help in determining "best" sound. And be in a room conducive to listening for this.

This business about valve noise is something that rates about 19 out of 20 in importance to me. Why? Because most any horn will be relatively quiet with proper maintenance, upkeep and good felts, pads and springs.

I agree there isn't much validity to my "perfectly in tune" claims without having an electronic tester on board. But what I can say is the (non-pro) embouchure our son uses gave us a good idea with RELATIVE PITCH as he performed various scales. On that account, we could tell very quickly if a note on a scale was sharp or flat - especially when the instrument was significantly off. On some Euphoniums, it was necessary to use alternate fingering to bring certain notes closer to the proper pitch. I also realize these pitch differences would sound more accurate if a professional musician was playing these instruments. And speaking of tight graphs... the chart on both Adams Euphoniums are SUPER impressive! Please know I wasn't trying to claim the JP374 is at the same intonation level of Adams (or any other high end instrument). My statement was solely based on our personal impressions given our son's accustomed way of playing.

I also wasn't too keen on comparing a $2,800 JP374 against a $1,600 Dolce. But I am hoping we can try the $1,800 JP274, and am quite excited to see how it stacks up against both the Dolce and the 374. If the intonation turns out to be significantly off with the JP274, I would be even more curious to WHY the Higgen's approved 374 makes such a difference? I was told the 2 main differences were the case and slightly thicker core brass metal. One thing I can say is we were in a much larger room when we tested the 374. The Eastman, Jupiter, and Wessex models were all played in a small practice room. The employee at The Horn Guys allowed us to use the main display area since there were no other customers in the store at that time. I don't think that would have made a difference with intonation. But I do think it could have made an impact on the "stage presence" I was referring to.

I believe you will have a similar experience with the jp274 as you had on the 374. But guess we will know when you get to test it out.
It has definitely been fun reading about your experience testing and looking around for an instrument to purchase!

It is nice to see how totally engaged you are in the search for a horn for your son. Good luck in finding a good one!

Thanks! It honestly has been a blast being so personally involved in this decision. We're trying our best to help our son make the best choice while staying mindful of the budget.

[EyeInSky]

This business about valve noise is something that rates about 19 out of 20 in importance to me. Why? Because most any horn will be relatively quiet with proper maintenance, upkeep and good felts, pads and springs.

The feeling I get with noisy valves is probably best compared to how a person dresses in a job interview. It is the INITIAL impression that "sets the tone" (pun intended) despite how qualified the job seeker is.

[EyeInSky]

I've read that people seem to think that Wessex is closer to the Yamaha while the JP to Besson. It can be see based on their valve caps too, I think? I'm unsure.

The JP did have these "pearl" like toppers on the valves, and the compensating topper piece came off.
Although this is easily fixed with some epoxy I immediately thought to myself how this would definitely NOT have happened with a higher end instrument (lol).

[mbrooke]

I’m sorry, but this discussion seems to be going off the rails a bit. It’s like worrying about whether a person that is just starting to play basketball needs one brand of $200 shoes or another. As long as they both fit, it doesn't make a difference. Take John’s advice and find a horn that gives the best sound and be done with it. Don’t worry too much about valve noise, intonation, etc. As your son’s experience/needs change his choice of horn may change. At this point he just needs something that sounds good.

Mike

[EyeInSky]

I’m sorry, but this discussion seems to be going off the rails a bit. It’s like worrying about whether a person that is just starting to play basketball needs one brand of $200 shoes or another. As long as they both fit, it doesn't make a difference. Take John’s advice and find a horn that gives the best sound and be done with it. Don’t worry too much about valve noise, intonation, etc. As your son’s experience/needs change his choice of horn may change. At this point he just needs something that sounds good.

Mike

With all due respect, a $200 pair of shoes is a far cry from a $2,000-$3,000 investment. If it wasn't for this board, I would likely have ended up purchasing a Jupiter or King non-compensating horn. This Euphonium isn't his introductory high school instrument. It's going to be a part of his college career (and possibly the rest of his life). The advice from the members has been VERY helpful. It was not a "pain staking effort" to audition these instruments. The auditions have been a *FUN* learning experience for all of us.

The decision is narrowed down to just a couple horns now... all in under 2 weeks! This forum has allowed us to efficiently target many things within such a short period of time.
I'm choosing to be descriptive with our findings in case the information might be useful for others facing the same situation.

[MichaelSchott]

I've read that people seem to think that Wessex is closer to the Yamaha while the JP to Besson. It can be see based on their valve caps too, I think? I'm unsure.

As these are clone horns, they are designed and built to play like an established brand like Yamaha, Besson or others and more specifically like a certain model. I do not know what the JP or Wessex Dolce are cloned from so can't comment on that.

[EyeInSky]

The JP274 has now been tested!...

It's a nice Euphonium. The finish was super nice, and the valves were reasonably quiet... and improved more after adding the included lubricant.
The tone sounded similar to the JP374, but not exactly the same. My strongest suspicion is due to the difference of listening environments (JP374 was demo'd in a larger showroom whereas the JP274 was demo'd inside a small practice room).
The intonation of the JP274 was a bit of a disappointment, however. My son commented how most Euphoniums tend to be "pitchy" on the 2nd valve, but on the JP274 we tested it was the 1st valve that was the biggest culprit.
On the JP374, he hardly had to move any of the slides on any of the valves. Everything seemed to be a perfect fit for him.

After testing a variety of Euphoniums, the list below is a summary of our personal preferences. The upper group contains the models in the running for purchase, whereas the lower group are models we tried and quickly ruled out:

#1) First place is the JP374 (while it does cost $1k more no other sub $3k instrument came close to this).
Each valve seemed to be in the ideal tonal range without the need of our son doing major "lipping" to adjust.
The slides were barely used, so the intonation was VERY well constructed.
The instrument also seemed to have a higher quality heft & feel to it. In comparison, the JP274 (and to some degree, the Wessex Dolce) felt a little "plastic" like to him - perhaps due to a lighter weight.
This was the ONLY instrument we tested where our son was grinning "ear-to-ear" within the first 5 minutes of playing.

#2) 2nd place is the Wessex Dolce (perfect price point, and GREAT tone quality). When it comes to intonation, the biggest issue lied within the 2nd valve - which was adjustable to some degree.
When he first demo'd the Dolce he had some reservations about it, but after trying out other instruments and coming back to it he liked the Dolce a lot more (it's now his 2nd favorite on the list).
If we end up purchasing this one, I will lean on the belief a brand new instrument will have much nicer finish and the valve noise can be fixed with lubricant and working out the pistons.

#3) 3rd place is JP274. If it wasn't for the unexpected 1st valve intonation problem, this instrument would likely have been his 2nd favorite (or at least a tie with the Wessex Dolce). The tuning on the other valves seemed fine, however.
The finish of the new JP274 and JP374 looked fantastic and blemish-free. The tubular curves & joints around the JP374 appeared to have a slightly better "sparkling" finish all around.
I think we can safely say the JP274 is out. We will most likely get the Wessex Dolce or spend the $1k more and get the JP374.

===

#4) Eastman EP426. This isn't even in the running because it's not compensating. The EP526 is out of the price range. I'm not sure if the Eastman uses the JINBAO factories or not. It's potentially a decent Euphonium, but likely overpriced for what you actually get.

#5) The Jupiter we tried had the quality heft & feel, but the tone quality was less than desirable and also seemed to have some severe intonation issues.

So there you have it folks! Thanks again for all of your input and advice. Now it's just talking with the wife and figuring out which of the two models we should purchase.

Quick question: Does the board agree there could be variances from instrument-to-instrument? Such that if a new instrument was purchased elsewhere we may discover different results compared to the ones that were tested?

[MichaelSchott]

One comment. Manufacturers use different gauge metals to achieve desired tone qualities and resonance. Adams even offers options for material thickness in their Custom euphoniums. This can affect the perception of solidity in a horn and of course affects weight.

[John Morgan]

Yes, there could be variances in instruments. I owned two Besson horns in a row back in the 90's, one fairly good, one awful. This from a top end horn. But, I would think for the most part, that the same model instruments from the same manufacturer would be similar. It does depend on their quality control and manufacturing maturity.

You have stated you liked the JP374 sound best. And that it was played in a large, I assume resonant room. The others in a small, probably stuffy practice room. It is hard to fully compare the sound of different horns when the environment used for listening is so different. I can play my Adams euphonium in various rooms of my home and get different results regarding the ambiance and sound/tone of my horn. Just beware of that.

[Arnbone Euph]

Au contraire. When I got my Besson Prestige many years ago from Dillon Music, it arrived with the "black" toppers all off and in the bag. Had to be glued back on. (So it's not just a prob with less expensive horns).

[guidocorona]

Yes, the JP 374 at 10LBS 10Oz appears to be over 1Lbs heavier than the Wessex Dolce, which weighs 9.25 Lbs.

Worth pointing out that Wessex is working on the EP600 high grade euphonium to be apparently priced in the $3K range... Hence a possible competitor of JP 374. I do not know yet when Wessex EP600 will be released... I heard positive comments about it but in spite of my hopes, I was not able to play test Wessex EP600 at ITEC... I was there only on 05/28... And the prototype was not going to be there until 05/29 *Rolls Eyes!*

G.

[davewerden]

Worth pointing out that Wessex is working on the EP600 high grade euphonium to be apparently priced in the $3K range...

I'll do a review of the Wessex EP600, Eastman, and Shires euphoniums when I have a chance. I have tuning graphs for them, too. The EP600 is a horn to watch - very impressive prototype.

[guidocorona]

That's awesome, Dave.. Are you at liberty to give us a vage indication of release timeframe for EP600?

Regards, G.

[davewerden]

That's awesome, Dave.. Are you at liberty to give us a vage indication of release timeframe for EP600?

Sorry - no clue (I didn't ask). They have a little work to do yet with ergonomics.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Seems like you have a good idea of which to go for, especially the "This was the ONLY instrument we tested where our son was grinning "ear-to-ear" within the first 5 minutes of playing."

The 374 might be a worthy investment if you and your child are looking at the long term community band playing (and IF your child won't turn into a euph gearhead in the near future ).