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**RickF** · 05-19-2019, 04:54 PM

Hi Sheldon. Welcome to the forum.

I can comment on the YEP641 as I played one for 12 years or more. Mine is currently on long-term loan to my grandson. The 641 is very well made with a 'one-piece' bell construction - which is different than many other models. It has a very focused tone due to its 11" bell. Yamaha horns are well made and durable. The sixth partials (high Eb, E and F concert) can be pretty sharp but most euphoniums have the same or similar sharpness. You can usually deal with this using alternate fingerings or by lipping the notes down some. The $4000 price tag does seem a bit high to me. A section mate of mine recently bought a nearly perfect used Yamaha 642 for $3500. If you're interested in the 641 maybe make the seller an offer.

Good luck in finding an excellent horn for your son.

**davewerden** · 05-19-2019, 05:15 PM

Welcome to the forum, Sheldon!

I love all the observations above (although I don't agree with all of them) - they are great to kick off discussion.

Jinbao has made and still makes a huge variety of models. They have brought out a number of horns that were previously hard to find here and expensive. The oval-style euphoniums (i.e. German style) are one example. Some of our folks (and a student of mine) have purchased some of these and are happy. But there is not much support with that route, so you're taking more of a chance.

The first step above Jinbao is Mack Brass. My understanding is that the instrument is strictly a Jinbao with Mack branding. Mack's customer service is generally thought to be good. They also inspect the horns as they arrive in the shop, which is good, and try to correct any problems. But there is a disincentive to send an inferior horn back, unless it is really bad, because they are without stock for a while and it's a bother.

My go-to choice for inexpensive is Wessex. I believe they started with a Jinbao (or similar clone of a recognized brand). My observations over several years are that Wessex began working for better QC from the factory. I don't know when they started visiting the factory to inspect every horn in each shipment, but that was a huge step IMHO. There is a lot of leverage in that. They can talk to the floor manager directly and make them fix the horn right there (or I suppose they could reject a really unfortunate sample if it came to that). They made some design changes along the way, that are unique from the original Jinbao, and also some manufacturing changes. For example, a Wessex consultant's advice caused them to start heat-treating the bells for more durability and better sound. They have also increased the thickness of silver plating substantially over standard Jinbao. And they are working up their own floors in the factory. Wessex has also designed several horns that are not offered by Jinbao, such as the double-bell euphonium (the first DB offered new in the last several decades, and I believe the only one currently in production).

JP Sterling and JP are separate lines as far as I know. The "Sterling" designation indicates that Paul Riggett of Sterling Musical Instruments in England has had a hand in design and also production methods. The JP Sterling has had some good reports here and elsewhere, but they are higher priced than Wessex. Perhaps some of the members here have insights into the "plain JP" line.

I saw the Matonis video comparison, and I find it quite flawed. Watch his finger action closely as he compares the valves. There is a big difference in the speed/force used, which by itself can account for extra noise on any horn. Not saying it was intentional, but it leaves the video useless in that regard.

I consider a Yamaha 641 a pro-level horn that is made well, plays well, and has been proven in the field. You might find it not quite as smooth and even from note to note as, for example, a Wessex, but I'm not sure about that. Newer designs have gotten more smooth from the player's point of view. But I would in no way consider the 641 unacceptable.

Those are my observations. I'm a professional horn comparer (in my own estimation!) who has been testing horns pretty intensely since around 1978. I'll do more at ITEC in a couple weeks. But even so, I am not able to have a lot of time will all brands. I have developed a methodology that lets me learn a lot in a half hour or so of testing at a display booth, but it is not the same as owning one. So take my feedback with a grain of salt. It is honest and based on experience, and as unbiased as I can make it - but it's not the last word.

MEMBERS: please jump in and share your various experiences. We won't settling the issues once and for all, but I hope we keep filling in more facts and perspectives.

**davewerden** · 05-19-2019, 05:22 PM

I forgot mention one thing to consider. Your son is likely to develop greatly while in college and his abilities and feelings about euphonium qualities may change. I don't know that you need to buy a life-long horn at this point. You could consider the Wessex as a fine college choice, and one he could keep playing as a hobby afterward. If he wants to get very serious, he could sell/trade the Wessex and move up to a pro brand of his choice. Just food for thought.

**John Morgan** · 05-19-2019, 06:47 PM

My suggestion would be the Wessex Dolce. I own one and have for a little over three years. I am a professional level player. I also own an Adams E3 Custom Euphonium. And a 1956 Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Euphonium.

The Wessex has a 3 year warranty. It also has a 2 week period where you can return the horn if you do not like it. I don't know that you will find Wessex products in music stores other than their own showrooms (a new one recently in the Chicago area). They also sell from England where the parent company is.

My Wessex is a brass lacquered model with gold brass bell. I got it for about $1250, give or take, three years ago. The current price is $1370 for the brass with gold brass bell and lacquered. I usually play my Adams, but I have been playing the Wessex exclusively for about 5 months now due to having my Adams at a very busy place awaiting some minor work. I get it back in a week. I play the most demanding solos on the Wessex with a band I am in where I live. The horn performs great. I use my own preferred mouthpiece, not the one that came with the horn. A friend of mine recently bought a Wessex. She experienced a couple minor things, but I think overall she is finding the horn to be very nice, she is a "returning" player.

I also played my Wessex exclusively for 6 months when I first got it. It was to be a bridge horn between my Miraphone M5050 and my new custom Adams. I sold the Miraphone and had to wait 6 months for the Adams to be built. I play a solo with my New Horizons Concert Band every year, sometimes two solos. The solo I was playing at this time was "Carnival of Venice". So I rehearsed that with the band for 3 months, then we played 10 or so concerts. Same thing right now. I played "Blue Bells of Scotland" for our spring semester. We rehearsed for 3 months, then played 7-8 concerts. The Wessex performed great for both. I have no worries at all using this horn in "ANY" setting. Oh, and I played the Bydlo solo from "Pictures at an Exhibition" in our orchestra using the Wessex. No worries whatsoever.

I had planned to sell the Wessex once my Adams was done and I had it. But, I liked the Wessex so much, I decided to keep it. Good thing I did. I need it now. I also use it when I am playing in close quarters or outside in bad weather, just to avoid getting my Adams (which is about 10 times the cost of my Wessex) banged into or otherwise damaged.

This horn would certainly suit an intermediate+ player well. And as Dave mentions, if he decides to really go all out on euphonium, he can always change to a pro brand later on.

Just to elaborate a little on my affinity for Wessex, I bought a Wessex Eb tuba a year or so ago. It is an excellent instrument, and I use it mostly for brass quintet and small ensemble work (brass music in church for example).

**ChristianeSparkle** · 05-19-2019, 07:04 PM

Hello! Those are some very in-depth observations!

I agree with Mr. Werden though, a Wessex or JP would be adequate enough and a pro brand can be considered down the line, especially if finances is a concern right now. But I most definitely understand if you had the same thoughts as me "If I am going to spend so much on a horn, I might as well only spend it once and get a pro brand and have it for a lifetime". I still have that thoughts some times.

I've only ever used a Yamaha EP100 and now a JP274, so I honestly don't think I have much insights to add. Your observations are generally what I noticed though, the JP274 is rather dark, the finish is decent (though there are white rings around some soldered joints on mine) and it feels heavy.

Mr. Finley (another user on this forum) often mentioned how the intonation on the JP274 is extremely good, I recently slowly came to see what he meant.

**EyeInSky** · 05-19-2019, 11:01 PM

Hi again,

Thank you so much for your input! It's super valuable information, and I have great respect for the years of experience you all have. I read quite a few posts on other threads from the members who responded here. Wow... there is just so much to these instruments.

Earlier today we drove to Ash Music. What a HUGE mega-store that is!!! Each instrument type/class had it's own dedicated large section - each with 2 or 3 practice rooms (with doors) so people can try out various instruments. One section had keyboards. Another had guitars. Another had percussion. There was an area for accessories, books and sheet music. And another area for wind instruments, etc. I was surprised with the amount of wind instruments they had! We were able to test out a silver plated Wessex Dolce. Right from the giddy-up I enjoyed the sound. It didn't seem to be quite as "mellow" as the JP274 (from the YouTube video I watched), nor was it "brassy" by any means. It had a pleasing semi-dark rich tone that I really liked. I would score the instrument an 8.5/10 for tone quality - maybe closer to a 9. The valves, on the other hand, were VERY noisy. Every valve when pushed made a brushing noise despite the website describing this unit to have quiet valves. I suppose this may have been a result of the item being stored on the wall... unused for a long time before our demo this afternoon. I imagine a good amount of oil to lubricate the valves may have cleaned up this noise considerably. I'm not a horn player, so I have no idea how often this procedure needs to be done. The salesperson thought it was at a few weeks before the last person looked at it.

The other issue was the semi-lackluster finish on the horn. It appeared slightly dull with a yellow-ish hue within the silver plating. I wonder if the silver plating is too thin and showing hints of the brass surface underneath? The instrument wasn't dull to the point of being flat. It just not as "sparkling" as I would have liked. It was mostly the hint of yellow/gold that raised an eyebrow or two. My wife also immediately noticed it. I think if the instrument was buffed & polished its appearance would have noticeably improved. I would score the appearance of the Wessex we saw a generous 7/10.

As for tuning/intonation, my son was very pleased with it. This was his first time playing on a compensated horn, and right away he could tell the lower registers were much more in tune compared to other models he played in high school. He said the middle registers were comparable, and the higher registers of the Wessex were at least a "little" better. It was the lower pitches that gave the best impression, although he indicated there were a few notes that seemed "pitchy" (at least he was able to "lip" up/down to make up the difference). This is where 'm guessing the higher end instruments will shine the most. There is a chart from Dave Warden showing specific notes that tend to be sharp or flat - so it's very possible those specific notes may have been the problematic areas. Our son mentioned one of the notes was natural 'E' (or maybe it was Eb). I can't say for sure. Our son's impression of the instrument (as a whole) would score maybe a 7/10. He said if the valves were quieter it would have gone up to an 8/10. We spent a good 15-20 minutes in the practice room trying out this instrument alone.

The store also had a brand spanking new 4-valve Jupiter. Well, since we were there we had to try it out, right? Coming out of the case the horn was PRISTINE & SPARKLING. An A+ 10/10 looking horn. I was told this was more expensive than the Wessex, but I didn't bother asking for the price (more on why later). Our son immediately puts on the mouthpiece and starts to play. Right away I'm hearing the sound and am thinking: "What a different sound... and not in a good way". On the plus side, the projection and clarity was maybe a hair better. But what the heck happened to that wonderful TONE the Wessex had? The Jupiter had a very straight-forward brighter sound. None of the notes had that "hypnotic" quality... the dark tone was completely lost. As our son started playing scales, it also sounded like many notes were significantly out of tune. Wow, what a disappointment compared to its shiny appearance (there goes the saying... you should never judge a book by its cover). After about 3 minutes our son didn't want to play on it any longer, so we politely returned the instrument and thanked the sales person for allowing us the opportunity to demo them. And that was that. I would probably give the Jupiter horn a 5/10 (my apologies to the Jupiter fans). I guess if the model was compensated I would have liked it more, but it seemed to have an abundance of "pitchy" areas that the Wessex was able to (mostly) navigate around.

I am not completely ruling out the Wessex. I should look into obtaining the serial number - which may indicate an earlier generation before Wessex made the finishing improvements. I think it will be difficult to locate a MackBrass or JP274 Euphonium for testing, but if we can find one it would be awesome. We know somebody who has an Eastman. Even though that model is not on our radar, we're still going to have a look at it so we can at least compare the response of tone quality, finish, and intonation, etc. I also wonder if the Ash Music sales people may be neglecting the Wessex (intentionally) to give Jupiter an advantage. Do NOT quote me on this as it's purely my speculative opinion. I say this only because he talked about how Jupiter "strongly supports" their business, so I started to think the dried-up valves and lackluster appearance might not have been a coincidence.

**EyeInSky** · 05-19-2019, 11:31 PM

Here is possibly the main "loaded" question here...
If you guys (Dave? Rick? John? Christian?) were to closely compare the Packer JP274 vs. Wessex Dolce vs. MackBrass, which model would you give the upper edge? And why?

Preference of tone aside, I wasn't sure what the experienced members thought had the better reliability/performance/intonation.
It sounds like the closest race is between Packer's JP274 and Wessex's Dolce.

**AlexS** · 05-20-2019, 01:55 AM

I purchased wessex while I was finishing college and it served me quite well. Everyone agreed that I sounded better on that than I did on the school's Hirsbrunner (a quite expensive, but old, horn). It played much easier too; in my experience it was easier than the 642( the sound didn't quite have the mass of the yamaha though). The intonation wasn't a problem. Whenever you switch horns, there's an adjustment period of forgetting your old instruments quirks and learning your new one's. I auditioned into a marine band on it successfully. I can't compare it to the JP, but I'm confident in saying that it's a solid choice. The valves can be worked on by a good technician and if the showroom model hadn't been broken in that could be a reason that they were loud, they take a couple days/ a week or so of oiling, cleaning,and beating to get just right. I'm actually selling my wessex to a fellow member of the san diego Marine band because he liked it and I just purchased a pricy horn of my own. Try the JP if you can, definitely. However, if that's out of the cards the wessex is a LOT of horn for the money.

Alex S.

**ChristianeSparkle** · 05-20-2019, 03:24 AM

That sounds like a productive visit to Ash's! Too bad there weren't other Euph for you to test out though!

I don't think I am able to give a comparison between the 3, as I just don't have enough experience with different brands (The JP274 is my only compensating euph). That said, I actually asked the same question to Algirdas Matonis in Oct last year, and he said that he'd definitely pick JP274 over Wessex, saying it's the best horn below $2,000 that he has encountered before. I took his word for it, and went with the JP. I pretty much went in blind, as I couldn't find any demo models to try in my city (maybe even the country, as even the Yamaha centre in my country doesn't keep demo units at all). The only thing I did was to get the dealer from UK to thoroughly check the horn before sending it to me (he gave a good price & is a trombone teacher).

Funny that you mentioned about the yellow hue, I actually was wondering about that yellow hue myself as I was cleaning my horn earlier today. There's a slight yellow-ish hue that I did not notice before. Though I wonder if it's just tarnish and a result of oxidation of the silver platin. The demo Wessex you encountered seemed to have been left on display for some time too, from the sound of it? Not sure if you can see the yellow hue in my photo, but it definitely stood out to me. I doubt the hue you mentioned on the Wessex is caused by thin silver plating though.

On a side note, since AlexS mentioned about ease of playing, I will add in my experience too. In the past few months, I was able to test out a Sterling Virtuoso, Besson Sovereign and an old Meinl Weston. Only 10-30 mins on them, so it's not much of an experience really. But I noticed that the Sterling Virtuoso and Besson both felt a lot easier to play, more free blowing, compared to the JP274. While the Meinl Weston was more difficult to tame.

Attached Files

**davewerden** · 05-20-2019, 06:27 AM

A silver horn is going to tarnish at some point. The more it is handled and the more it left exposed, the faster it will tarnish. My own horns have shown tarnish that is black-ish and also that is yellow, depending on the horn and conditions. You could always buy a polishing cloth from Ash, one that is treated with polish on one side and just plain on the other side. Then use it on one of the silver patches and see what happens. I suspect it will be satisfying. There are many threads on the forum about polish, but basically you want to go over the horn with a good silver polish that includes a tarnish inhibitor. I always used Hagerty polish with great results:

https://www.amazon.com/Hagerty-10120.../dp/B0000CFMQO

That said, because Wessex is always improving things, it is worthwhile to see how old that floor model is. They are inexpensive enough that one does not need to feel constrained to buy a used one or an old/new one.

Almost any new horn you get at any price will need a breaking-in period for the valves, no matter how good they feel out of the gate. I always remove the pistons daily, wipe them down, and oil them for a couple weeks at minimum. AND when putting the piston back in, you must be sure the valve spring is seated correctly, so the cylinder should be straight up and down as you do this. If not, the spring could be crooked and scrape the sides as it moves. My own horn would cost close to $10k new and I have some high-priced "Mead Springs" in it to replace the standard springs. But if I don't keep it clean and keep the springs centered, it will make scraping noise.

**guidocorona** · 05-20-2019, 09:12 AM

Hello Sheldon, what mouthpiece was your son using when testing the Wessex and the Jupiter?

Reason for asking is that as mouthpieces have an influence on a number of parameters, including overall tone, testing results may vary unnecessarily if each instrument is tested using its own stock mouthpiece.

For example, the stock Wessex mouthpiece on my Wessex Festivo seems to impart a somewhat lighter / less intense / less warm tone than my Wick SM4U, and at least for me, seems to impart a slight limit to the instrument's range in the lowest and upper range.

I can just imagine that the stock Jupiter mouthpieces would have its own unique characteristics different from the Wessex...

Using his own MP, your son would be able to control this otherwise unpredictable variable.

Concerning valve noise, I have noticed that the valve noise of my Wessex Festivo has abated considerably since I received it last July, without perhaps reaching the total silence of Adams valves. But it is important to consider that current Wessex EP100 and EP104, as well as JP 274 are not $10K professional-level euphos.... Thus some allowance must be made to some minor mechanical flaws which would be otherwise unacceptable on a $10K horn.

Concerning tarnish on Silver.... Typically starts as a yellowish tinge, gradually morphing through more mustardy, sepia, and then tar-like black... In spite of its apellation as a "noble metal", Silver is far from remaining tarnish-free like Gold.

Best, Guido

**ghmerrill** · 05-20-2019, 09:27 AM

I continue to be puzzled by repeated complaints (regarding various instruments) concerning "valve noise". First, this should not be terribly difficult to diagnose. And then, second, it should not be difficult to fix -- unless there's something really fundamentally wrong with the instrument that's causing it, and then you need to know that.

Piston valve noise is almost always caused in some way or another by (1) Felts (wrong size/thickness, or worn, or possibly "too hard"), (2) Valve guides or channels (worn, poorly made, or dirty), or (3) springs. Otherwise, something that SEEMS to be valve noise may not be valve noise at all -- e.g., a broken or partly broken solder joint somewhere in the instrument, or a loose "solder blob" inside the instrument. But these things can be found and addressed.

In the case of springs, the Chinese instruments in my experience just don't have very good springs. Hey, if you can't see it, who cares, right? And you may wonder by what magic a genuine Yamaha euphonium has so much quieter springs than your Chinese clone. You think it might be because the Yamaha springs are plastic coated? Then get some Yamaha springs and throw them into your euph, eh?

If the problem is something like valve guides and channels and it turns out that this is because the channels were machined a bit too wide and the result is valve clatter, then yeah, you're probably stuck -- because while this is theoretically fixable, it's not worth going there. However, I haven't seen that in my Chinese instruments.

One problem with serious valve noise I had was on my (duh!) 1924 Buescher tuba that still had the original (brass) valve guides. Clatter, clatter, clatter ...! But it didn't take much effort to take those (almost 100 year old) guides out, true up the channel tops a bit, drill and tap the valve guide holes, and put plastic guides in. The result was silent valves. Actually, with the plastic valve guides and the Yamaha springs in it, the valves on that ancient horn are quieter than those on either my Mack Brass euph or Wessex tuba (both of which are very quiet).

The other serious problem I have is with the rotary valves on my Amati oval euph. Terrible clattering. This is because the linkages are worn, and the only solution to that short of replacing the entire linkage (not going to happen!) is to drill out the bushings and valve arms and put in slightly larger pivot screws. Sometime ... maybe this coming winter.

But my point is that USUALLY valve noise is eminently fixable, and MOST OFTEN in the case of PISTON valves it simply involves first FINDING the problem and then applying the very simple fix -- like buying plastic coated valve springs (or maybe some felts), which will typically cost you around $20.

**John Morgan** · 05-20-2019, 09:46 AM

If the Wessex had been sitting around (was this a used model, I didn't know Wessex sold from other dealers), then you could get very scratchy sounding valves. They need to be lubricated and used. Mine are very quiet and I do nothing special other than play the horn and keep the valves oiled. The yellowish appearance is indicative of a silver plated horn that is showing signs of tarnish, very normal, and what you would expect of a horn sitting around. It sounds very much like this horn has been basically ignored.

The Wessex is a good, solid horn. Period. Can't say that any other way. But you have to get what you like and are happy with. Good luck.

**mbrooke** · 05-20-2019, 11:28 AM

I think there is also an issue of expectations. One shouldn't expect the same level of sound/quality from one of the Chinese sourced horns as one would from a pro level horn. Also, expecting a young player to be comparing (and very concerned with) high range response, projection, articulations, etc. seems a bit much. Although maybe I am just outdated. At this point, it would makes sense to pick a well regarded model like the Wessex and make it work. If after he has played the horn for a good while it no longer meets his needs, then he can move to something different. But, trying to sort this all out before purchase can lead to insanity. Just my opinion.

Mike

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Contemplating 1st purchase for our student son (Intermediate+ level player)

Contemplating 1st purchase for our student son (Intermediate+ level player)

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