Why not play forever?

[davewerden]

Thank you all for responding! Seems fairly unanimous. So, follow up: if your career had been with a municipal symphony that didn't boot you out after so many years, would you play forever then?

Very possibly.

[John Morgan]

Ditto, gotta keep playing. I have no plans now to abandon the several groups I play in. I plan to play as long as I "can" play well enough to be a contributing asset rather than a detrimental nuisance.

[ghmerrill]

In such a case, it's not that simple a decision -- even if you decide on conditions and criteria for ceasing to play. I give you two examples.

In the early-90s I played (tuba) with a local and quite good community band. There were good players in each section who could "anchor" the section and support good performances. There was a single euphonium player who played what I believe was a Besson 4-valve compensating horn. He was great -- I mean really excellent. Even though he had a very demanding job that often took him out of town, he always knew the music and made every effort (including engineering his schedule as much as he could) to make the rehearsals. I stopped playing (for a variety of reasons) between about 1994 and 2009.

Fast forward about 15 years and I returned to the band. The euph player was gone. He'd decided to stop playing, they said. Then at one of our concerts at a local a retirement community, there he was. Looking pretty much the same, wearing the same old leather bomber jacket, hair with a lot more white in it. I asked him why he wasn't playing any longer. "I just got to the point where I can't play at the level I could before, and at the level I want to in order to be happy with my playing. So I stopped." And he's not the only musician I know who's made a similar decision. But anyhow, I play in a different band now.

In the same band -- second time around -- there was a trumpet player. In his 70s. Mostly since he comes to rehearsal all the time (and most others don't) he de facto assumed the "first chair" position and always played either the 1st or 2nd parts. He has no sense of pitch, can't play in tune, and can't hear that he's not playing in tune. A few years ago (when I was still playing with that band), we had a quintet that played a number of the simple pieces out of the Canadian Brass "medium difficulty" Dixieland book. It was pretty dreadful. He had a solo in "Closer Walk". After our gig, a friend of his came up to him and said (with intended irony) "You know, I don't think I've ever heard it played quite like that." I don't want to be that guy. I never played with a group that included him again (although he's not the only trumpet player for whom I have this rule).

I don't want to be THAT guy. I'm not that guy -- yet. But there will come a time. I think I'll know when it is, but I think I've got several years left. Then maybe it's time to switch to the electric bass or maybe percussion. Play FOREVER? No, not really.

[RickF]

Well said Gary. A section mate and I agreed about 20 years ago to tell each other when we should just hang it up - just in case we don’t know ourselves.

[DaveBj]

In such a case, it's not that simple a decision -- even if you decide on conditions and criteria for ceasing to play. I give you two examples . . .

*snip*

"I just got to the point where I can't play at the level I could before, and at the level I want to in order to be happy with my playing. So I stopped."

*snip*

Gary, this post really hit home. I'm approaching my mid-70s, and I have reached the point where I am having to re-evaluate my performing in public, especially in bands. I never miss practices of the two bands in which I'm currently playing (see my sig). I learn the music, and I do well in the rehearsals, but for some reason I am unable to put together a decent performance on the concert stage. I mean, seriously, what serious musician gets lost in the Chaconne of the 1st Suite in Eb? I did, just a couple months ago. This kind of thing has been going on for the past several years.

So I am looking at dialing back on my participation. I have 95% decided to resign from the Huntsville band after our big July concert. The 120-mile round-trip commute has become uncomfortable, especially since much of the driving is in the dark (and this year, frequently in storms), but the more important reason is that I just don't see myself as playing up to the same level as the rest of the band. They deserve better than I seem to be able to deliver. I have also 95% decided to skip IET this year, but in this case the more important reason is that my wife's health has deteriorated to the point where she needs pretty much 24/7 personal monitoring, and as of now, we don't have anyone lined up to stay with her. But that's a different issue.

The community band is local, and operates at a somewhat more relaxed level, so I have no plans to drop that any time soon, but I am seeing the same problems in those concerts -- lapses in concentration and silly errors.

Bottom line -- I don't want to be That Guy, but that's what I see myself becoming.

[lzajmom]

I assume by the time one's skill and/or faculties have diminished as Gary described, most professional ensembles would give the boot. That's pretty much true of any job. So it seems like the consensus is: play professionally as long as they will let you, and play for hobby as long as you can. Sometimes professional ensembles (like military bands) give the boot before income-generating years are over, but there isn't anything inherent to the job that deteriorates some aspect of one's being any faster than a normal job or normal aging. Tangentially, the exercise of both sides of the brain through music surely preserves one's faculties longer than many other jobs or hobbies.

Personally, I think I might be more like Gary's trumpet player who stayed than the euphonium player who left. I don't want to be a detriment to whatever ensemble I'm in (although sometimes I feel like that even now), but surely there's a place for people like him to plug into somewhere. John and others involved in New Horizons, do you encounter that scenario a lot? How is it handled, if at all?

Next follow up: do you think euphonium-ing is a family-friendly profession? Obviously some jobs would require more travel and longer hours than others, but in general for military bands and municipal symphonies?

[ghmerrill]

... there isn't anything inherent to the job that deteriorates some aspect of one's being any faster than a normal job or normal aging.

I'm pretty sure that in general one's physical abilities degenerate at a faster rate than one's mental abilities. This certainly applies to the level of physical performance required in any sport or in any "job" that requires fine muscle tone, motor skills, and constant physical practice -- as in the case of fingering, slide manipulation, embouchure, breath capacity and control, and hearing. I avoid 6th and 7th position (and play a double-valve bass) in part because of the consequences of shoulder arthritis. Of course, it may not be the job that causes such deterioration, but the deterioration limits the ability to perform the job before (and sometimes significantly before) affecting other jobs that you would be able to perform quite competently -- which is, of course, a primary reason that people like the euphonium player stop playing and why the trumpet player should stop playing -- at least in certain organizations.

Also, Izajmom, I take it you've never "plugged into" a New Horizons band or you would have an entirely different perspective. While NH bands may vary in the capabilities of their players, most that I've encountered lean more toward collections of players along the lines of the trumpet player illustration -- often including players that have little or no experience as well, and that play primarily at a middle school level. A lot of people find it enjoyable to play in such ensembles, and I won't say that they shouldn't. But I don't.

[John Morgan]

Regarding New Horizons Bands, there is quite a range of talent and age. I have been associated with New Horizons for many years, started some, conducted some, taught at some of their summer camps, and played in several for quite a long time. Was the original webmaster for their website for the first ten years. There are some players in New Horizons groups (bands, orchestras, choruses) who are not very good and probably won't ever be very good. The whole premise of New Horizons was to find people a non-intimidating group to play in where "your best is good enough". And it originally was for those over 50 who may have played in school, then had their careers and family, and now they are retired and want to return to playing. Or some started playing for the first time in the older years. Sure, some of the groups are perhaps at the middle school level. But, there are also some groups that play pretty darn good, at least at the high school level. There are over 300 groups world wide. The group I am currently in is made up of retired band directors, a few who played professionally (I being one of them), some who played a long time ago, some who started in their later years. Our group is probably in the middle to slightly above middle in ability and overall group musical level in relation to all New Horizons groups.

People tend to stay on in these groups. Some probably past the point where they are a productive part of the group. But I have also seen some voluntarily leave from playing over the years (I have been in this band going on 10 years). I enjoy playing in these groups, even though I have played in very good, professional groups throughout my life as well. I like being able to assist others, provide a strong foundation in my section, see others having a good time with music, and making many new friends (music in general has always been a great source for making friends for both Linda and me). I started a guitar/flute duet with a flute player in the New Horizons band (me on guitar). Several of the members are in other groups including a big band. So, lots of opportunities to do things musical. I play in a municipal band in the summer, and it is quite good. This is probably more musically rewarding for me, but I cherish my time in the New Horizons band and the program in general. I will stay as long as I can.

[ghmerrill]

What I said about NH wasn't intended as an attack on the organization or the people in it. One band I participated in for about six months was run (indirectly out of Duke University) by a very capable middle school band director from one of the local elite private schools (which two of my children attended for high school and one attended for middle school and early high school). That "concert band" had associated with it a "jazz band" and a "Dixieland band" that consisted of quite capable players -- but entry into those was highly restricted and they were really almost "private bands". There was in addition a "beginner's band" for people who had NO experience, and then the "concert band". While there were some capable players in the concert band, I'd say that no more than 30% would qualify for such a description. At one point while I was playing in it, it had eight (!) "baritone" players, and that section was pretty much of a mess. The trombone and tuba sections were okay. Percussion was a disaster. The woodwinds muddled through. The level of the music was at most grade 3, but what I'd peg as pretty much what a second-year middle school student would be expected to play (the tuba parts rarely wandered out of the staff, and never above it). There are several good reasons for playing in (or being involved in) a musical group. But if playing music is what you're really after (and by "you" I mean people reading this forum), then some things work and some things don't.

The other NH bands I know of in this region (i.e., that I could drive to in an hour or even a bit more) are not as capable. I know that, nationally, there are some groups that are pretty darn good. I think this is very locale-relative and depends heavily on the community the band is drawing from and both who the conductor is and how the particular band is administered (which may be two completely different issues). Also, a NH band is subject to high player turnover. People die, people get sick and drop out, new people show up and then disappear, significant (sometimes laughable) imbalances in instrumentation can occur. And all of that happens with much higher frequency than in a normal community band or similar organization. A survey of what's typical in terms of music and performance can be found on YouTube (and keep in mind that what people post on YouTube is what they think is their best work). Just Google for "New Horizons Band YouTube". If you're interested in a NH band, the very best thing you can do is to first listen to recordings/videos that they have posted on YouTube or their site, or attend a concert and rehearsal. Then make your own judgement based on your own goals.

In no way do I want to discourage anyone from participating in a NH band, but (particularly in the context of the membership of this forum) if you're thinking along the lines that a NH band is a community band for older people, you will likely discover that it's not quite what you're thinking of. As John has pointed out, the NH program was initiated with (and maintains) certain goals. Expect those goals to predominate in how the band is run.

[John Morgan]

What I said about NH wasn't intended as an attack on the organization or the people in it....

I didn't take it that way, no worries. I just wanted to elaborate a bit on the New Horizons program in general. I find that I can enjoy the music being played, I have an outlet where I can play a solo with the band usually each year (I enjoy that and the band members seem to as well and we have a very loyal audience in town), and I can practice things at rehearsal like breath control, intonation, tone, basically all of the fundamental things can be worked on even when playing some music that is overall not real challenging (to me). But we do play music that is pleasing. A lot of what a typical community band might play. Just not the real hard pieces.

[John the Theologian]

I think becoming That Guy varies so much. I have a section mate in the trombone section in the Big Band that I play in who is 89, I believe, and he is still playing at a pretty good level. He also is the local music director for the community theater for many of their musicals. Ed was a professional bass trombonist as a young man, but made the decision to go into academia and was a Musicology prof at the U of Iowa for many years. In his retirement he took up trombone and euphonium playing again-- he plays euph in the local community band and does a good job with that as well. He also builds beautiful harpsichords.

So I guess it just depends on the person.