Lipping Up, Lipping Down?

[ChristianeSparkle]

This is something I've been struggling with for quite some time, and I can't seem to get a proper answer from brass players in my community band.

What does it mean to lip up and lip down when you're trying to tune your instrument? I am still rather lost when it comes to tuning on the fly against other players during rehearsals, I just can't figure out if I am sharp or flat even if I sometimes know I am not in tune, so I usually use a tuner to do the job.

Even after using a tuner and messing around myself for so long, I admittedly, still do not know what to do to purposely push a note "up" (to go sharper?) or "down" (to go flatter?) . Is it as simple as manipulating your aperture size or something?

Also, I have been following Mr. Werden's guide to tuning to tune all the slides. Is there a need to manipulate many of the notes via lipping up and down once I tuned, or does doing that tells me I have some issues with my embouchure? (A tuba player/band director told me I should not be "lipping" at all and all my notes should be naturally in tune, though I wasn't sure if it's a possible language barrier we had as his 1st language wasn't English)

Thank you everyone!

[davewerden]

Even after using a tuner and messing around myself for so long, I admittedly, still do not know what to do to purposely push a note "up" (to go sharper?) or "down" (to go flatter?) . Is it as simple as manipulating your aperture size or something?

Lipping does cause changes to your lips' tension and aperture size, similar to the way those will change when you slur up to the next note higher with the same fingering. But I don't usually start by focusing on the mechanics.

I'll speak in concert pitch, but you can actually apply the same logic using treble clef notes. Start on a B-flat in the middle of the horn. Have your tuner there and set you slide so it's in tune. Then, very slowly, begin to do a lip slur up to a D (without changing fingering, of course). Think of this like a slow-motion movie effect. You should see the tuner report that you are going sharp on the Bb before you arrive at the D. So if you did this, but stopped before you changed notes, you have just achieved lipping a note up.

...does doing that tells me I have some issues with my embouchure? (A tuba player/band director told me I should not be "lipping" at all and all my notes should be naturally in tune, though I wasn't sure if it's a possible language barrier we had as his 1st language wasn't English)

Let's hope that was a language issue! For tuba player, the most commonly-used horn setup is with front valves (vs. the side valves most euphoniums have). And most of those players keep their left hand on a slide and move it in or out for certain notes (instead of lipping). There is NO tuba that will be perfectly in tune on all its notes without some slide manipulation of lip adjustment. Same is true for euphonium.

[JTJ]

"I am still rather lost when it comes to tuning on the fly against other players during rehearsals, I just can't figure out if I am sharp or flat even if I sometimes know I am not in tune, so I usually use a tuner to do the job."

Try ear training by tuning to drone notes until you can hear yourself playing in tune. Here is a short introduction (aimed at horn players but still valid for low brass) to the technique:

https://colindorman.com/horn/improve...n-with-drones/

john

[Sara Hood]

I admittedly, still do not know what to do to purposely push a note "up" (to go sharper?) or "down" (to go flatter?)

Yes, you have it right. Pushing "up" is getting sharper and "down" is getting flatter.
- Sara

[ChristianeSparkle]

Lipping does cause changes to your lips' tension and aperture size, similar to the way those will change when you slur up to the next note higher with the same fingering. But I don't usually start by focusing on the mechanics.

I'll speak in concert pitch, but you can actually apply the same logic using treble clef notes. Start on a B-flat in the middle of the horn. Have your tuner there and set you slide so it's in tune. Then, very slowly, begin to do a lip slur up to a D (without changing fingering, of course). Think of this like a slow-motion movie effect. You should see the tuner report that you are going sharp on the Bb before you arrive at the D. So if you did this, but stopped before you changed notes, you have just achieved lipping a note up.

Yes, you have it right. Pushing "up" is getting sharper and "down" is getting flatter.
- Sara

Thanks Mr. Werden and Sara! I feel foolish now for not piecing it together all these while! I knew you're supposed to lip "up" or "down", but I never knew what it meant or how to do it. Only after reading Mr. Werden's explanation did it make sense, of course it is similar to how we do lip slurs! It never occurred to me!

About the language issue, I am guessing it must be! I've tried to ask quite a few low brass players what it mean to lip up or down and they either didn't seem to get what I meant or unable to explain to me. That said, it's probably also because I did a terrible job explaining in Mandarin when I had to translate over, as I've learnt all of these terms and concepts in English.

"I am still rather lost when it comes to tuning on the fly against other players during rehearsals, I just can't figure out if I am sharp or flat even if I sometimes know I am not in tune, so I usually use a tuner to do the job."

Try ear training by tuning to drone notes until you can hear yourself playing in tune. Here is a short introduction (aimed at horn players but still valid for low brass) to the technique:

https://colindorman.com/horn/improve...n-with-drones/

john

Thank you, Mr. John! That is extremely helpful! Will definitely incorporate it into my routines. It's been driving me nuts how it felt so difficult to actually figure out whether I am in tune or not, while it feels like the others in my community band can quickly identify whether you are in tune or not.

[lzajmom]

I was recently working through a duet book with a second person in a small practice room. When I asked about physical embouchure changes related to pitch, he advised not to get too caught up in the mechanical technique but simply to listen and adjust until it sings. He said it would be intuitive before it was mechanical. In that small room, we played some simple chords together, and I could physically feel when the pitch landed. When one of us was sharp or flat, I could feel the tension. When we met each other and made the chord sing, I could feel that tension smooth out. Like it was a physical sensation on my arms and in my chest. I dunno if it would be like that for everyone, and I won't say that understanding the mechanics isn't helpful, but it may be worth finding a friend and small room to see what happens. Maybe you could feel it before you can think it?

[DaveBj]

. . . we played some simple chords together, and I could physically feel when the pitch landed. When one of us was sharp or flat, I could feel the tension. When we met each other and made the chord sing, I could feel that tension smooth out. Like it was a physical sensation on my arms and in my chest. I dunno if it would be like that for everyone, and I won't say that understanding the mechanics isn't helpful, but it may be worth finding a friend and small room to see what happens. Maybe you could feel it before you can think it?

What you're describing is what happens when both (or all) notes are exact multiples of some base (not bass, altho that fits, too) frequency. It helps to have a background in barbershop singing. In that genre, it's all about "locking" the chords.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Thank you everyone for the explanation! I am happy to say that I now have better control of my intonation. Instead of just haphazardly adjusting my embouchure and hope that the note goes the direction I want it to, I can bend the note sharper or flatter at will.

I was recently working through a duet book with a second person in a small practice room. When I asked about physical embouchure changes related to pitch, he advised not to get too caught up in the mechanical technique but simply to listen and adjust until it sings. He said it would be intuitive before it was mechanical. In that small room, we played some simple chords together, and I could physically feel when the pitch landed. When one of us was sharp or flat, I could feel the tension. When we met each other and made the chord sing, I could feel that tension smooth out. Like it was a physical sensation on my arms and in my chest. I dunno if it would be like that for everyone, and I won't say that understanding the mechanics isn't helpful, but it may be worth finding a friend and small room to see what happens. Maybe you could feel it before you can think it?

Ah, this is cool! This is something that seems to be a hit or miss to me. Sometimes I can feel it, while other times, I am not idea what's going on. Especially true when we are just a few cents off of each other.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Figured that this would be a good place to ask, instead of trying to hunt down the threads I read about this some time ago.

So I understand that Bessons usually has some quirks with very sharp upper range, the Eb and a few surrounding notes. It is the same on my JP274 and it takes a lot of lipping down (have more control now finally!) to have it in tune with the tuner (though I understand that in an ensemble, you can't depend on the tuner, even temperament or something).

My question is that, how do you address these sharp notes back then? I recall that quite a few of you, Mr. Werden included, who used old Bessons without triggers back then. Do we just have to live with the sharp notes, or try to lip it and cause the notes to not be centered?

[davewerden]

The fingering question has been answered at least a couple times, but I'd have a hard time finding it. So...

In concert pitch, on my Bessons and my pre-Virtuoso Sterlings, I used:

Eb - 13
E - 24
F - 4

For the Eb, 14 is also an option on a compensating horn, which might be useful in some instances, but 13 has fewer inches of tubing.

[ChristianeSparkle]

The fingering question has been answered at least a couple times, but I'd have a hard time finding it. So...

In concert pitch, on my Bessons and my pre-Virtuoso Sterlings, I used:

Eb - 13
E - 24
F - 4

For the Eb, 14 is also an option on a compensating horn, which might be useful in some instances, but 13 has fewer inches of tubing.

I feel silly now, as I somehow never recalled reading about alternative fingerings (especially the 13 for Eb) on the threads I read on the forum back then. I know there are alternative fingerings, like 1+4 for Eb, 24 for E, but they sounded very stuffy and still rather sharp for me. So I assumed that it would be extremely hard to lip them all down adequately. Will keep trying and see how they turn out, especially the 13 for Eb!

[davewerden]

I feel silly now, as I somehow never recalled reading about alternative fingerings (especially the 13 for Eb) on the threads I read on the forum back then. I know there are alternative fingerings, like 1+4 for Eb, 24 for E, but they sounded very stuffy and still rather sharp for me. So I assumed that it would be extremely hard to lip them all down adequately. Will keep trying and see how they turn out, especially the 13 for Eb!

You may want to back off the air just a bit for Eb with 13. Because it feels stuffy your natural reaction is to blow harder. I found I could adjust HOW I blew, maybe using less intense air but with equal air quantity.

In this video, virtually all the Eb's I played were with 13. You can see it very well in the 2nd recitative part, which should show up right away in this link:

https://youtu.be/t9z9UvfFR4s?t=460

There is a slight color change, but part of that is the context, because I want the Eb to have more emphasis.

You can also see it here briefly:

https://youtu.be/RYBwZcPJsuA?t=186

[RickF]

I agree that some horns sound stuffy with those alternate fingerings. My Yamaha 641 was that way... especially 1-4 (Eb), 2-4 (E). 1-3 was okay for Eb. I used 4 for 6th partial 'F' concert just fine. The tone was a bit weird with the others.

On my M5050 those alt fingerings are actually sharper. Maybe because the 4th valve circuit bore is only .630, not sure. They're easily lipped down however.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Thank you both! I just tried everything out, and 1+3 slots very nicely and in tune for Eb. And yes! I was trying to use more air when the note sounds stuffy. Backing off on the air instead of trying to blow harder cleared the note up! Thanks, Mr. Werden!



The E and F though are still rather sharp even with the alternative fingerings. Maybe I need to rethink it and try and adjust the tuning slides a bit more for the 4th valve.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Just figured I could drop an update on this, a Canadian friend chanced upon 1 + 2 for concert pitch F that was rather in tune compared to the extremely sharp 0, 4 and 1 + 3. I've found the same thing too. Both of us are using the JP274. The neater part is that it isn't as stuffy as 1+3 or 4. So I am extremely happy that we are able to find a compromise for the F!

The fingering question has been answered at least a couple times, but I'd have a hard time finding it. So...

In concert pitch, on my Bessons and my pre-Virtuoso Sterlings, I used:

Eb - 13
E - 24
F - 4

For the Eb, 14 is also an option on a compensating horn, which might be useful in some instances, but 13 has fewer inches of tubing.