Wessex Euph or Baritone?

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Hello All,

I currently have a YEP-201 Student Euphonium, and debating getting a Wessex Dolce or Wessex BR-144 Baritone.

For those who have had the opportunity to see/play both any comments or leanings you may have? I understand baritone vs Euphonium differences, but most of the reviews and comments have been about the dolce. Anyone have much feedback on the Baritone?

Secondly, is either much of a real upgrade coming from the Yamaha horn? I am expecting moving to a 4 valve/compensating horn should be, but also with it being a cheap horn I am not sure if it makes the most sense or if I should be saving my pennies for a Besson 165-2

[davewerden]

Welcome to the forum!

Your question is hard to answer in an absolute way. Can you tell us more about your situation (in school, out and working, retired) and where you expect to play (in church, community band, school bands, etc.)?

[Clayton M.]

The Besson 165-2 is, I believe, non-compensating. If that makes any difference in your decision making process.

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Thank you, Dave,

I am not in school, I played the trumpet mainly through school and just out of high school. I did play the Euphonium for a year in a community band out of school and then was mostly off the last 10 years. I am playing in a community band now, and due to the large trumpet contingent, I thought I would take up the euphonium again. I am at a place now where I have the means to invest in something a bit more quality, and want an instrument I can grow on past the basics.

Clayton, I wasn't entirely sure if it was or not, I am not stuck with any particular horn, but in seeing the reviews here and on youtube those were kind of the two I was looking at.

[highpitch]

A euph can find work in several types of bands, a Wessex bari is best suited for brass bands.

A different sound is why.

DG

[John Morgan]

Yes, I agree with highpitch (Dennis). I think a euphonium would be a better choice over a baritone if you are playing in a community band. I own a high end horn (Adams E3) and a Wessex Dolce euphonium. I am very happy with my Dolce and find it to be a very good instrument. I think the Wessex Dolce could serve you well. And it is 4 valves and compensating.

[Sara Hood]

Anyone have much feedback on the Baritone?

I kind of have experience with the Baritone. What I have is the JinBao standard horn that the BR140 is based from, and finished in nickle. It is a 3 valve compensated baritone, as opposed to the 4 valve compensated (BR-144) that you are asking about. It is a lovely horn and works well within the environment I play in (church brass band, modeled after British Brass Bands) at The Salvation Army. In that context, both euphoniums and baritones are used regularly. Euphoniums typically get more ornamental, and/or solo caliber parts. Think of the lead tenor soloist and you get the idea. Baritones often provide a solid/foundational "third part". If the horns themselves are in an equal level of esteem in your book, then go with the one that gets the kind of part you like to play, or fits within your personal physical limitations better. Get the finish on the horn (lacquer, silver plate, etc.) that makes your heart sing and that you can afford, because the the horn has to please you as its owner. As far as three versus four valves in a baritone, go three. In my opinion, most of what a fourth valve can do for you, the compensating tubing is already doing. I have not seen much use for the four valve baritone in either the community band or the British Brass Band setting, that is not already covered between the baritone and the euphonium. The four valve baritone is trying to straddle the fence between them and those lines (and musical traditions) are already firmly drawn. The best thing you can do to get more parts and playing opportunities is to be able to read both treble and bass clef. Tenor clef too, if you are ready for the next challenge. Let us know what you decide. (smile)

- Sara

[bbocaner]

I've tried the BR-144 a couple of times at booths. Take this with a grain of salt as I have probably a grand total of 20 minutes with the instrument. I thought it played well enough but it had some pretty severe intonation problems. Correctable with alternate fingerings, but I hate having to do that. The Wessex BR-140 I thought played much better, with a really nice sound and a really great response and nicely defined articulations. Still not perfect in terms of intonation (nothing is absolutely perfect) but far better than the BR-144. I think four valves on a baritone can be handy for stealing euphonium (and other instrument) solo repertoire but not necessary.

But, as others have said, unless you are planning on playing in a brass band (or just practicing at home), baritone has limited value. A euphonium is a more useful instrument to have.

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Thank you everyone for the excellent information and feedback!

[jkircoff]

A British baritone is largely out of place in a concert band, and is primarily if not exclusively used in British-style brass bands (outside some older pieces that have a baritone part, which is mostly a mirror of the euphonium part). Its sound can be described as a cross between a euphonium, trombone, and french horn (alto/tenor horn in a brass band). A euphonium will give you more opportunities in both concert and brass band.

[TheJH]

Yeah use of baritones is decreasing pretty quickly to just brass band, even in Dutch-Belgian Fanfare bands the baritone parts are just played on euphs because... reasons I have no idea of :/ I guess it's just easier to place euph players on those parts because they're more common? Which is pretty sad tbh.

But yeah, euphs are way more useful than baritones overall.

[DaveBj]

I agree that, given a binary choice between euph and bari, the euph will get a lot more usage. I did buy a Chinese bari when I was switched from euph to bari in the Brass Band of Huntsville; I wanted to have my own instrument. Otherwise, I would have never considered it.

However, yesterday the Cullman Community Band played a concert including the Holst 1st Suite, and I played the original bari part

[jkircoff]

British baritones are so rare in North America that brass bands tend to buy them for their musicians (tenor horns are also this way). North American baritone players almost always have a euphonium or trombone background, and challenge for most players it to play the baritone in the traditional British style. Those who come from euphonium backgrounds start off on baritone playing like a euphonium, and same for trombonists. It takes time to develop the proper baritone sound...which is different depending on which part you play....and learning how to match whichever instrument you are doubling or harmonizing with (commonly tenor horns, euphoniums, and trombones...with the first baritone often having solos or playing duets with the principal solo cornet).

[dsurkin]

British baritones [snip]....and learning how to match whichever instrument you are doubling or harmonizing with (commonly tenor horns, euphoniums, and trombones...[snip]).

In my community orchestra, the second trombone part is played on a JinBao British baritone. It works okay in our section, and no one would mistake it for the blend of a professional orchestra (I play lead on a medium-bore Bach 36B, the baritone plays second, and the third part is played on a small bore Yamaha tenor [yeah, I know that's just wrong]).

[daruby]

British baritones are so rare in North America that brass bands tend to buy them for their musicians (tenor horns are also this way). North American baritone players almost always have a euphonium or trombone background, and challenge for most players it to play the baritone in the traditional British style. Those who come from euphonium backgrounds start off on baritone playing like a euphonium, and same for trombonists. It takes time to develop the proper baritone sound...which is different depending on which part you play....and learning how to match whichever instrument you are doubling or harmonizing with (commonly tenor horns, euphoniums, and trombones...with the first baritone often having solos or playing duets with the principal solo cornet).

James, you hit the nail on the head. Bravo!

It is absolutely important to listen to who you are playing with in the brass band and color your playing appropriately. I have been playing 1st baritone for 10 years now with the New England Brass Band. It took me two whole seasons to come to grips with the sound of the baritone. The key for me was:

1. Choosing the right mouthpiece. Since I usually use a Wick 4AL, I tried all flavors of Wick 4 (SM4B, 4AY, 4BS), Wick 5 (5BS), Wick 6 (6BS, SM6B) and even the Alliance B6 that comes with a 2056 Prestige. None worked well. I went back to my 6 1/2AL and found range, intonation, and response were MUCH better. Finally I settled on the Bach 5G (small shank) and found it to be the best compromise for me.
2. Listening to good players - KATRINA MARZELLA, Helen Harrelson, get the older CD "Baritones to the Fore", search You Tube for solos featuring Katrina
3. Listening to your band mates - Try to think what the difference between tone matching euphs (usually "underneath them", versus adding depth to the trombones, vs. playing in section with the horns (including flugel) should sound like. Color you sound accordingly. Getting a "quieter" euph sound, vs. "fuller" trombone sound, vs. more bell-like horn sound are each very different.
4. Getting used to the horn - The band's York 3056 four valve baritone was pitchy and responded differently depending which overtone series I was in. The 4th valve was nearly useless and made the ergonomics of the horn very tiring. Also, it is easy to overblow most baritones for euphers used to putting lots of air through the horn. Purchasing my heavy bell Sterling solved ALL of those problems. Pitch is MUCH better, response is MUCH better, easier to achieve the tone I want, and the heavy bell makes it easier to play at high levels without rattling the bell.


Doug