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Thread: Name That Horn

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Sturgis, South Dakota
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by lzajmom View Post
    Right - I know a euphonium can have 3 valves, but I guess I thought this looked cylindrical? Maybe that doesn't mean what I think it means...

    I mean, they all become conical at some point because the bell has to open up. So where exactly are we looking?
    Well, it is a matter of degree. Baritone horns are more cylindrical in their tubing whereas euphoniums are pretty darn conical. A euphonium is probably more conical (mostly conical in fact) than a baritone horn is cylindrical. In fact, a baritone horn does get somewhat conical as the tubing gets closer to the bell, but it is much more gradual and there are sections where the tubing is almost completely cylindrical. Look at the euphonium, say a four valve euphonium, from the tubing coming out of the 4th valve through the main tuning slide (even the legs of the main tuning slide are different bore sizes attesting to the conical bore) and all the way to the bell. It will be conical the whole way. With a baritone that tubing coming out of the 3rd valve for a ways before it gets closer to the bell is much more cylindrical. This makes for different sounding horns. There are other things contributing to a different sound as well.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    1,984
    Another way of looking at it is ...

    Imagine lifting the entire valve section out of the instrument. Now look at the tubing that's part of the valve section and the tubing that's not.

    In almost all cases, the tubing in the valve section is cylindrical. Even in the common case where the 4th valve tubing increases in diameter, the valve circuit is still cylindrical (doesn't increase in diameter gradually on its way to the bell). You can always test this by trying to turn around the valve slides and insert them "backwards". This will (almost always) work: they're cylindrical tubing.

    But OUTSIDE the valve section the tubing is (mostly) conical. Of course it can't be truly conical in a tuning slide or that slide wouldn't ... er ... slide. So the legs in that case are cylindrical (but of different diameters) while the crook is conical. After the valve section, the tubing is conical and increases in diameter all the way up through the bugle.

    In many (but not all) cases, the lead pipe (from the receiver to the valve section) will also be conical. On my 1924 Buescher, my Wessex Champion (Besson clone) Eb tuba, and my Amati oval euphonium, the lead pipe is obviously conical. On my Mack Brass (Jin Bao) euphonium, it appears to be cylindrical but in fact is conical as well -- the appearance being primarily an artifact of the relatively short length of the lead pipe in the classic euphonium case.

    There are instruments that are fully conical through the valve sections (with the exception, of course, of the tuning slides). So far as I know, these are all tubas. I don't know of any euphoniums that employ a conical valve section.

    In general, the run of tubing in a tuba/euphonium is conical (lead pipe)/cylindrical (valve section)/conical (remaining tubing through the bugle) while for a baritone it's cylindrical/cylindrical/cylindrical/conical (in bugle). At least as a rough approximation.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #23
    As a demonstration, I can try to reverse the main tuning slide of my euphoniums, and the procedure won't work; one side won't go in, while the other side is way too loose. However, I can reverse the side on my British baritone, and both sides fit just fine.

    D
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  4. Heya, remember this? I was told today that I could keep it! The local music shop quoted me something very reasonable to make it playable, but they'll have to send it off to be refinished. It may not be as fancy schmancy as other horns, but it really was fun to play. Kinda feels like Christmas!

    Also I just remembered that I never responded to all the explanation above about differentiating between a baritone and euphonium. You were all very helpful, as always, and I appreciate you!
    Wessex Dolce

    "Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things -- trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones." - Puddleglum in "The Silver Chair"

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Smoketown, Pa
    Posts
    198
    As Dave Bj said and I was taught, if you can reverse the tuning slide, it's a baritone. When I was in college, I owned a Conn 24I and no matter what I said and showed them, they called me a baritone major and I had an euphonium. I was the only one with a 4 valved instrument and they still called it a baritone. Even today in one community band, they say I'm a baritone player. The oval horn in German is baryton but I would called it more euphonium like because of the conical tubing at the tuning slide.
    B&S 3046 Baritone/Euphonium
    B&S PT33-S Euphonium
    B&S PT37-S
    Schilke ST20 Tenor Trombone

  6. #26
    Like I said earlier in the thread, the word baritone is not wrong. It is 100% correct to call a euphonium a baritone, as long as you are cognizant of the fact that there is a different instrument that is also called the baritone.
    --
    Barry

  7. #27
    Why, yes, sir, I play the euphonium,
    Occasion'ly called baritonium.
    It's bright brassy yellow;
    It sounds very mellow;
    And it's prettier than a trombonium.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

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