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Thread: Mouthpiece Logic

  1. Mouthpiece Logic

    I've read several threads about mouthpieces for various instruments, and yet I don't feel like I know anymore than I did before. I'd like to keep the wriggly worms in the can, if possible, but could someone help me understand the basic logic to the different features of a mouthpiece? What are the perceived causes/effects of the individual components?

    Size of bore
    Rim
    Depth
    Shape

    I'm not even sure what components I should be asking about, but I'm hoping for an overview of the (at least perceived) physics.
    Wessex Dolce

    "Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things -- trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones." - Puddleglum in "The Silver Chair"

  2. #2
    There's some good information on this in the bach mouthpiece manual:

    https://www.bachbrass.com/applicatio...l_1889_web.pdf

    Rim
    Wide: Increases endurance.
    Narrow: Improves flexibility, range.
    Round: Improves comfort.
    Sharp: Increases brilliance, precision of attack.

    Cup
    Large: Increases volume, control.
    Small: Relieves fatigue, weakness.
    Deep: Darkens tone, especially in low register.
    Shallow: Brightens tone, improvesresponse, especially in high register.

    Throat
    Large: Increases blowing freedom, volume, tone; sharpens high register (largest sizes also sharpen low register).
    Small: Increases resistance, endurance, brilliance; flattens high register.

    Backbore
    Except in general terms, it isn’t possible to identify backbores by size because they also vary in shape. Various combinations of size and shape make the tone darker or more brilliant, raise or lower the pitch in one or more registers, increase or decrease volume. In each instance, the effect depends in part on the throat and cup used in combination with the backbore.
    The manual goes into more detail about all of these - and they aren't hard and fast rules, either. Changing individual things can affect different people in different ways and changing combinations of things can have non-intuitive results, but I think these are pretty good starting places. There are also a LOT more variables to consider (shape of the cup, material, length of the stem, weight and shape of the outer blank, plating, etc.) that are less obvious.
    Last edited by bbocaner; 02-27-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    --
    Barry

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Location
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    As Barry says, these are only fairly loose associations of what you might think of as "playing characteristics" with "physical properties". The bottom line of all of it is that you simply can't predict with any precision, on the basis of the published mouthpiece dimensions (which often are incomplete or even inaccurate) how a mouthpiece will work for you. You can only get a kind of ballpark speculation of how it may be better or worse in certain ways -- and prepare to be surprised. After you've tried a dozen or so you may get more of an experienced and intuitive feel for it. And you can't rely much on reports of other people who, surprisingly, don't share your facial/dental/etc. characteristics.

    As Barry also notes, the perceived physics is VERY complex -- involving multiple measurements in 3 dimensions and complex curves. As an example, for my Eb tuba I use a Wick 3XL mouthpiece. The only apparent (and documented) difference between this and the Wick 3L mouthpiece is the curvature of the INNER EDGE of the rim. Everything else is the same. Yet it makes a substantial difference (both in how it feels and in how I play) compared to the 3L. It feels like a somewhat larger mouthpiece and requires a firmer embouchure, even though it's only the inner rim curvature that's different while the "nominal" rim diameter is the same.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by lzajmom View Post
    I've read several threads about mouthpieces for various instruments, and yet I don't feel like I know anymore than I did before. I'd like to keep the wriggly worms in the can, if possible, but could someone help me understand the basic logic to the different features of a mouthpiece? What are the perceived causes/effects of the individual components?

    Size of bore
    Rim
    Depth
    Shape

    I'm not even sure what components I should be asking about, but I'm hoping for an overview of the (at least perceived) physics.
    Here's some info from Scott Laskey. It's mostly about enlarging the throat, but does have some interesting info. If you want mouthpiece discussions, go to a trumpet forum. Those folks are insane!

    http://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhea...roat_size.html

    Mike

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    2,362
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    If you want mouthpiece discussions, go to a trumpet forum. Those folks are insane!
    They can afford to be. You can experiment with a lot more trumpet mouthpieces for a given amount of money than you can with euphonium, trombone, or tuba mouthpieces.

    Keep in mind that several places allow you to get mouthpieces "on trial" and return them -- but you're stuck for the shipping costs. However, that's generally a better approach than buying and then selling. Except I find that it really takes me a couple of months to figure out how I feel about a lot of mouthpieces. Luckily, after decades of trial and error, I'm quite locked in to my current collection.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,362
    As another example of the "metrics" difficulties (related to the physics), the measurement of the inner diameter of the rim depends on where you measure this (i.e., how far down from the top surface of the rim). And different mouthpieces have different rim profiles (flat, shallowly rounded, significantly rounded) and different rim widths (not diameter, like 28 mm, but the actual width of the rim such as 6 mm). So a manufacturer might say that the cup diameter is 26.40 mm (for the Wick 3AL), but when you get out your calipers and measure it you get something a bit different -- because you're not measuring it at exactly the same depth (position on the inner rim) as the Wick people do. Then when you go to compare this to, say, a similar Bach or Schilke mouthpiece (which have their own rim curvatures and measurement processes), you run into the same problem. So comparing two mouthpieces -- on paper, with the published measurements -- has a certain margin of error that's difficult to estimate and may end up being significant in terms of how they play for you.

    The same is true for the measurements and descriptions of the throat and backbore (which also can be of different 3-D shapes in different brands or models). And the same is true of cup depth. Assuming that you start at the highest part of the rim, exactly how far down is the bottom of the cup? Where exactly does the throat begin? These are, for the most part, matters of decision and not discovery. And people doing the measuring (manufacturers, players posting measurements, and you when you go to do it yourself) make different decisions that make for differences in results. There's no "standard" for such measurements.

    Then when you aggregate all these variances in measurements (rim diameter, cup depth, cup volume, bore, backbore, throat, ...) the differences can mount up and you get a huge surprise when you actually try the piece. Still, that -- and subjective playing impressions from others -- are all we have to go on. And a good time is had by all.

    I sometimes suspect that mouthpiece makers generate most of their profits from mouthpieces that are bought, tried, sold at a discount, and then that process is iterated. I wonder whether at any given time there aren't more mouthpieces sitting around in the world unused than mouthpieces that are being played on. I know I have about a half dozen of those!!
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  7. Thank you all! This was really helpful! I understood that the differences will affect different people differently, but it seems kinda like picking paint: you may go through a dozen (or 32) samples before you end up with the right choice, but you have to start somewhere.
    Wessex Dolce

    "Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things -- trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones." - Puddleglum in "The Silver Chair"

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