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Euphonium to Trombone

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  • Jackr_34
    Junior Member
    • Jan 2019
    • 6

    Euphonium to Trombone

    So I know this forum is mainly for Euphonium/Tuba players but I figured I could still get help. I am a Junior High Euphonium player who recently took an audition for High School band placement(we have three ensembles) and was placed in the top band on trombone. They asked me if I would switch and I said yes because I have had a trombone for a few months and had played on it some. Having not expected to be switching I never took it very seriously and my slide positions were not learned and I have had lots of trouble staying in tune. I have a few months before I begin to play with this band so what should I be working on to improve my slide technique? I have mainly been working in the Arban book on articulation excersizes and scales. I also have problems cracking notes on trombone whereas I almost never crack my notes on Euphonium. Why am I having problems cracking notes and what can I work on to fix this issue?
  • adrian_quince
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2015
    • 277

    #2
    Originally posted by Jackr_34 View Post
    Why am I having problems cracking notes and what can I work on to fix this issue?
    It most likely has to do with the slide positions. If you try to buzz a particular note and the instrument isn't the right length to make that note, the note will crack as the instrument forces your lips to resonate at the nearest frequency that corresponds to the length of the instrument. Scales very slowly with a tuner are probably your best bet to start.

    If you can manage a few lessons with a trombone teacher, you really should consider that. Getting a sound set of fundamentals will help you play trombone like a trombonist and not a euphoniumist.
    Adrian L. Quince
    Composer, Conductor, Euphoniumist
    www.adrianquince.com

    Kanstul 976 - SM4U

    Comment

    • John Morgan
      Moderator
      • Apr 2014
      • 1884

      #3
      Agree with Adrian above. I play both euphonium and trombone, and there are a different set of skills for each and a different sound for each. It might not be bad to play some of the euphonium music you are familiar with on trombone. Then you know what it should sound like. I learned trombone after euphonium and thought of the slide positions to corellate with the fingerings on the euphonium. Others may do that differently. There is a lot of learning to master the trombone slide technique.

      Looking at this from another angle, do you really want to play trombone over euphonium? I know some band directors try to switch people around to balance their groups and perhaps for other reasons, but if euphonium is the instrument you prefer, I don't know why you would want to switch to trombone.
      Last edited by John Morgan; 03-18-2019, 09:05 AM.
      John Morgan
      The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
      Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
      1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
      Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
      Year Round Except Summer:
      Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
      KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
      Summer Only:
      Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
      Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

      Comment

      • bbocaner
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1449

        #4
        Get some lessons from a qualified teacher immediately. There's a lot of nuance to good slide technique, and you also have to worry about developing and coordinating a legato tongue. There are so many ways you can get bad habits started, it would be well worth your while to spend some time with someone who can guide you in the right direction. Some of the best trombone players were originally euphonium players, and it opens a huge world of musical possibilities up to you that you wouldn't have as a euphonium-only player.
        --
        Barry

        Comment

        • ann reid
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2019
          • 193

          #5
          Wonderful to be able to double! NOW- seek out a qualified teacher.

          Comment

          • enhite
            Senior Member
            • May 2012
            • 270

            #6
            One of my teachers in college, Henry Charles Smith III, started on euphonium and then learned trombone in order to play in his school orchestra. It worked out for him, as he later became principal trombonist for the Philadelphia Orchestra. When I studied with him (many years ago), he was equally wonderful on both instruments.
            I think that Adrian Quince's advice to practice trombone with a tuner is spot on. You will need to learn to adjust your slide to bring your notes in tune.
            Good luck!

            Comment

            • lzajmom
              Member
              • Feb 2019
              • 84

              #7
              Originally posted by John Morgan View Post
              Looking at this from another angle, do you really want to play trombone over euphonium? I know some band directors try to switch people around to balance their groups and perhaps for other reasons, but if euphonium is the instrument you prefer, I don't know why you would want to switch to trombone.
              This!!! When I was in high school, I picked up trombone just so I could audition for all-region orchestra, which didn't have euphonium (stupid buttfaces). I made it and attended the clinic, but then didn't enjoy it. When I stopped playing completely, it was never once the trombone that made me feel wistful. It certainly wasn't the trombone that compelled me to return to music many years later, despite 100 reasons against it. If you love the 'bone or think you might learn to, then do your best and enjoy having more instruments to love. If you don't, then I encourage you to be honest with yourself and your band director. You want to love this thing to which you devote so much time!
              Wessex Dolce

              "Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things -- trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones." - Puddleglum in "The Silver Chair"

              Comment

              • jkircoff
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2013
                • 213

                #8
                One of the bigger challenges I faced learning trombone after learning euphonium was the role of the embouchure. Playing euphonium requires embouchure adjustments depending on valve combination and role in chord structure. Those adjustments on trombone are to be done on the slide, so the embouchure is much more static.
                James Kircoff
                Genesee Wind Symphony - principal euphonium (Adams E3 Custom .60mm yellow brass bell w/ K&G 3.5)
                Capital City Brass Band (2019 NABBA 2nd section champions) - 1st baritone (Besson BE956 w/ Denis Wick 6BY)

                Comment

                • ghmerrill
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 2382

                  #9
                  Originally posted by jkircoff View Post
                  Playing euphonium requires embouchure adjustments depending on valve combination and role in chord structure. Those adjustments on trombone are to be done on the slide, so the embouchure is much more static.
                  This is not my experience, and seems to be incompatible with enumerable discussions among trombonists on such topics as the "pivot" (Reinhardt) and "embouchure motion" (Doug Elliott). I find that I change my embouchure much more frequently on trombone than on euphonium or tuba.

                  We agree at least that the embouchures for these instruments are different.
                  Gary Merrill
                  Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
                  Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
                  Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
                  1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
                  Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
                  1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

                  Comment

                  • jkircoff
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2013
                    • 213

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ghmerrill View Post
                    This is not my experience, and seems to be incompatible with enumerable discussions among trombonists on such topics as the "pivot" (Reinhardt) and "embouchure motion" (Doug Elliott). I find that I change my embouchure much more frequently on trombone than on euphonium or tuba.

                    We agree at least that the embouchures for these instruments are different.
                    I think we are in more agreement than initially thought. I still adjust my embouchure as I go into upper and lower registers on the trombone, but I use the slide for intonation adjustments instead of the jaw on euphonium.
                    James Kircoff
                    Genesee Wind Symphony - principal euphonium (Adams E3 Custom .60mm yellow brass bell w/ K&G 3.5)
                    Capital City Brass Band (2019 NABBA 2nd section champions) - 1st baritone (Besson BE956 w/ Denis Wick 6BY)

                    Comment

                    • bbocaner
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1449

                      #11
                      That's part of the reason I like to use a trigger on euphonium. I started on euphonium but I majored in trombone and do most of my playing these days on trombone and I find it a lot better to be able to blow right through the middle of the note and make the adjustments with the instrument rather than my embouchure.
                      --
                      Barry

                      Comment

                      • John Morgan
                        Moderator
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 1884

                        #12
                        Agree with Barry. I play both euphonium and trombone and use trigger and/or embouchure to fix intonation on euphonium. But once you lip a note up or down, you lose some of the core center of the note, more or less depending on how much you have to lip. The trigger works great to avoid this on euphonium, and is especially useful if you "know in advance" the tendencies of your horn so that you don't play the note with intonation issues, then hear it, then decide it is out of tune, then use the trigger. If you really know your horn, the trigger happens almost simultaneously with the note sounding (just a wee tad before).

                        With trombone, which I play a fair amount of, the slide is your friend for intonation issues. You can make just about any adjustment you need to with the slide. I tend to tune my 1st position Bb so that the slide is a wee bit out so that there is room to improve the intonation on 1st position notes with the slide. There is much agreement and disagreement with this method, and some trombones have or had a spring in 1st position for the purpose of allowing for adjustment of flat 1st position notes, but still tuning the Bb full in (not pressing the spring though).
                        John Morgan
                        The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
                        Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
                        1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
                        Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
                        Year Round Except Summer:
                        Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
                        KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
                        Summer Only:
                        Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
                        Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

                        Comment

                        • ghmerrill
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 2382

                          #13
                          Originally posted by John Morgan View Post
                          I tend to tune my 1st position Bb so that the slide is a wee bit out so that there is room to improve the intonation on 1st position notes with the slide.
                          There is a school of thought (adhered to fairly widely) that "tuning" the trombone should amount only to pushing the tuning slide all the way in and leaving it there. Doug Elliott, among others, plays this way. (This raises the separate question as to exactly what pitch that should yield, but let's ignore that.) Then you just play. I used to be quite resistant to this view, but recently have come to see the sense and utility in it, particularly with a double-valve bass.

                          Since a number of notes on a double-valve bass will be sharp in what we ambiguously call "1st position", you'd better get used to "1st position" being a relative concept -- which of course it is on a double-valve bass anyway (or even a single-valve horn, though often "method" approaches don't take exactly this perspective), or even a straight horn if you you think about intonation characteristics).

                          So now I tend to play with the main tuning slide all the way in (i.e., the open horn as sharp as it will go), and play (all of) the 1st-ish positions offset from that. I tune the 1st and 2nd valves based on that setting.
                          Gary Merrill
                          Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
                          Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
                          Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
                          1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
                          Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
                          1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

                          Comment

                          • John Morgan
                            Moderator
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1884

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ghmerrill View Post
                            So now I tend to play with the main tuning slide all the way in (i.e., the open horn as sharp as it will go), and play (all of) the 1st-ish positions offset from that. I tune the 1st and 2nd valves based on that setting.
                            Well, I suppose that is sort of the max case of me tuning the 1st position Bb with the slide out a bit. My general thinking being that if a trombone is tuned "sharp", you will always have the ability to fix it by moving the slide out. The reverse not being the case. This holds as long as 7th position isn't so sharp that to get it in tune you would have to go to 8th position, which would leave you with the slide removed from the trombone.
                            John Morgan
                            The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
                            Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
                            1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
                            Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
                            Year Round Except Summer:
                            Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
                            KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
                            Summer Only:
                            Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
                            Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

                            Comment

                            • ghmerrill
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 2382

                              #15
                              Originally posted by John Morgan View Post
                              This holds as long as 7th position isn't so sharp that to get it in tune you would have to go to 8th position, which would leave you with the slide removed from the trombone.
                              Yes, but with a valve, you don't need 7th position.
                              Gary Merrill
                              Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
                              Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
                              Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
                              1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
                              Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
                              1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

                              Comment

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