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Thread: Euphonium to Trombone

  1. #11
    That's part of the reason I like to use a trigger on euphonium. I started on euphonium but I majored in trombone and do most of my playing these days on trombone and I find it a lot better to be able to blow right through the middle of the note and make the adjustments with the instrument rather than my embouchure.
    --
    Barry

  2. #12
    Agree with Barry. I play both euphonium and trombone and use trigger and/or embouchure to fix intonation on euphonium. But once you lip a note up or down, you lose some of the core center of the note, more or less depending on how much you have to lip. The trigger works great to avoid this on euphonium, and is especially useful if you "know in advance" the tendencies of your horn so that you don't play the note with intonation issues, then hear it, then decide it is out of tune, then use the trigger. If you really know your horn, the trigger happens almost simultaneously with the note sounding (just a wee tad before).

    With trombone, which I play a fair amount of, the slide is your friend for intonation issues. You can make just about any adjustment you need to with the slide. I tend to tune my 1st position Bb so that the slide is a wee bit out so that there is room to improve the intonation on 1st position notes with the slide. There is much agreement and disagreement with this method, and some trombones have or had a spring in 1st position for the purpose of allowing for adjustment of flat 1st position notes, but still tuning the Bb full in (not pressing the spring though).
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    I tend to tune my 1st position Bb so that the slide is a wee bit out so that there is room to improve the intonation on 1st position notes with the slide.
    There is a school of thought (adhered to fairly widely) that "tuning" the trombone should amount only to pushing the tuning slide all the way in and leaving it there. Doug Elliott, among others, plays this way. (This raises the separate question as to exactly what pitch that should yield, but let's ignore that.) Then you just play. I used to be quite resistant to this view, but recently have come to see the sense and utility in it, particularly with a double-valve bass.

    Since a number of notes on a double-valve bass will be sharp in what we ambiguously call "1st position", you'd better get used to "1st position" being a relative concept -- which of course it is on a double-valve bass anyway (or even a single-valve horn, though often "method" approaches don't take exactly this perspective), or even a straight horn if you you think about intonation characteristics).

    So now I tend to play with the main tuning slide all the way in (i.e., the open horn as sharp as it will go), and play (all of) the 1st-ish positions offset from that. I tune the 1st and 2nd valves based on that setting.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    So now I tend to play with the main tuning slide all the way in (i.e., the open horn as sharp as it will go), and play (all of) the 1st-ish positions offset from that. I tune the 1st and 2nd valves based on that setting.
    Well, I suppose that is sort of the max case of me tuning the 1st position Bb with the slide out a bit. My general thinking being that if a trombone is tuned "sharp", you will always have the ability to fix it by moving the slide out. The reverse not being the case. This holds as long as 7th position isn't so sharp that to get it in tune you would have to go to 8th position, which would leave you with the slide removed from the trombone.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    This holds as long as 7th position isn't so sharp that to get it in tune you would have to go to 8th position, which would leave you with the slide removed from the trombone.
    Yes, but with a valve, you don't need 7th position.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Yes, but with a valve, you don't need 7th position.
    How true. I don't see 7th position very often. My bass trombone and tenor (with F attachment) allow me the pleasure of not traveling out to 6th and 7th position, even though my arms are longer than King Kong's. I do, however, sometimes play low E natural in 7th position if it is a fairly long note and particularly if it is soft. This because the 7th position low E natural just flat out sounds better in 7th than long 2nd with trigger.

    A little off subject, but triggers and 7th position remind of the piece we are playing in orchestra at the moment. Russian Sailor's Dance. Talk about an awkward bit about half to two thirds of the way through with the trigger going on and off at rapid speed. I am talking about the Bass Trombone (3rd) part. I can't imagine anyone playing that at written tempo without a trigger, and even then it is nasty, particularly if you are interested in the precise positions (trigger and long 2nd, vs. no trigger and regular 2nd).
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    This because the 7th position low E natural just flat out sounds better in 7th than long 2nd with trigger.
    I can't say that this is true for my horn (or maybe it's not true for me and is just a comment on the poor quality of my E on the straight horn ).

    I was going to ask you if this was true for each of the valves, but I see that you have one of those double valve basses where the valves -- obviously through some manufacturing defect -- aren't arranged correctly and so limit your options. I'd take it back and get that fixed.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    ...I was going to ask you if this was true for each of the valves, but I see that you have one of those double valve basses where the valves -- obviously through some manufacturing defect -- aren't arranged correctly and so limit your options. I'd take it back and get that fixed.
    Yes, the good old dependent rotor system. When the opportunity to play bass trombone arose about 9 years ago, I had no bass trombone, so quickly had to figure out what to get. Douglas Yeo influenced the decision a lot. Then when I got his signature trombone (the Yamaha), I didn't know for another year or two that you could completely remove the D valve section. And then I realized what the extra slide was that came with the horn (mind you no instructions at all). Can't say I like this better or worse than the independent rotor bass trombone, because I haven't played the in-line system. But, the horn I have works for me. In this case, ignorance is bliss (although I have read a fair amount on the pros and cons of both systems).
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  9. #19
    As a trombonist who is a euphonium doubler I have just the opposite problem. I'm not as used to adjusting the embouchure for intonation as many of you "native'" euphonium players are. I know when I used to play my non-compeensating Yamaha 321 it was even worse than when I switched to my Mack Brass compensating horn.

    I'm too used to playing the notes in "short' and "long" positions and I sometimes forget that those done't exist on a euphonium.

  10. #20
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    ... Douglas Yeo influenced the decision a lot. ... Can't say I like this better or worse than the independent rotor bass trombone, because I haven't played the in-line system.
    Yes, I was heavily swayed by Doug's views as well and wrung my hands a lot over the choice. But my primary decision at the time was whether to go the more costly high-end top-brand way, or to go the real low-ball way. I'd had a Holton TR-181 many years ago, but never learned to play it well -- partly because the ergonomics were discouraging for me.

    If I'd decided to go the high-end way, I almost certainly would have chosen dependent valves. That seemed to be less complicated and to have certain advantages over the in-lines. But I finally decided to go low-end so that I could experiment with ergonomics and other features until I learned what I really liked and could do -- and then maybe make a decision about a better horn.

    Schiller was as low-end as I could go and still have confidence that I'd have a playable horn. I'd tried a Yamaha YBL-830 clone and just didn't like it for some inexpressible reason, and so went in the 7B clone direction. After a few relatively minor mods to the horn it became, to me, an ergonomic dream, and a great player. Now, I would not consider a dependent valve system. I'm too addicted to the second valve, and in fact probably use the Gb valve more than the F. It's just more versatile in the staff where it gives you that extra half-step and otherwise covers much of what you'd use the F valve for anyway. I'd like to try a dependent valve horn at some point; but to me, giving up the independent second valve would be like giving up the 4th valve on a euphonium.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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