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Boosey & Hawkes round stamp Sovereign, completely restored!

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  • Vito
    Member
    • Oct 2015
    • 96

    Boosey & Hawkes round stamp Sovereign, completely restored!

    Hi, it's been a while since I posted on this forum, but I think this one is worth sharing!
    Last summer, I came upon an opportunity to buy a 1980 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign globe stamp (sn 647xxx). These are very hard to come by, especially on mainland Europe where I'm located at.
    The seller told me that the horn had been in the possesion of an older gentleman, who quit playing due to old age and was, presumably, the first and only owner yet. The horn itself was in a decent state, with some wear an tear and some dents, nothing to major. It had an aftermarket trigger installed that worked fine, but wasn't as smooth as a modern trigger system and lacked a belly guard, so it constantly blocked due to contacting the body while playing.
    I bought the instrument on the spot because, while it wasn't near any perfection, it had a sound that no other instrument could beat, coming from my experiences with Sterling Virtuoso, Besson Prestige and more modern Sovereigns.
    Now, last december I fell pretty hard with my bike while carrying this instrument and as you could already have guessed; the horn was near total destruction. I decided to send it to Mcqueens Musical Instruments located in Manchester, a very fine shop in brass instrument repairs and refurbishment. (Check out their facebook page!) and last week, I finally got the horn back.
    You can see in the picture that the instrument is now near perfection, with no signs of repair or damage at all. The horn has been completely disassembled, undented, reassembled and replated.
    As far as playing goes; soundwise it's still pretty much the same, I could tell no difference from memory. The trigger still has the same problems, but those can be easily dealt with. The one notable difference was the air consumption; this thing is no joke! Maybe it's because of the resoldering, but the instrument has almost no resistance at all! This is great for the sound, but it takes a lot of effort to keep it going so to speak.
    Maybe someone could recommend me some tips or even some mouthpieces to try out? I'm currently playing a Wick 4al, having changed back from sm4 since I got the horn back and I found the responce a tiny bit improved on the 4al. Sm4u was too big to match with this instrument. Maybe I should try out a Shilke 51d or 52d?
    Please let me know your thoughts, and enjoy the picture! I'll try to upload some more in the coming days, including some from the refurbishing process.
    Kind greetings,
    Vito
    Click image for larger version

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    Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
    2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3
  • John Morgan
    Moderator
    • Apr 2014
    • 1885

    #2
    Nice looking horn. Be careful with it now!! And with yourself, also!! It is interesting that the resistance has changed so much. A silly question, but are you sure there are no holes where there shouldn't be (joints where air may be leaking)?

    Would be nice to see the before and after.
    Last edited by John Morgan; 03-07-2019, 07:45 AM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

    Comment

    • RickF
      Moderator
      • Jan 2006
      • 3871

      #3
      Man that horn looks gorgeous!! Not used to seeing the ‘round stamp’ logo on such shiny horn. These horns are notorious for having a sweet sound.

      Don’t know if another mpc would help with the horn requiring more air. Like John mentioned, maybe there’s a air leak some place. But... if the tone is still excellent maybe there’s no air leaking. Were you injured badly with the fall?
      Rick Floyd
      Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc

      "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
      Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches

      El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
      The Cowboys (John Williams, arr. James Curnow)
      Festive Overture (Dmitri Shostakovich)
      ​

      Comment

      • Vito
        Member
        • Oct 2015
        • 96

        #4
        Originally posted by John Morgan View Post
        Nice looking horn. Be careful with it now!! And with yourself, also!! It is interesting that the resistance has changed so much. A silly question, but are you sure there are no holes where there shouldn't be (joints where air may be leaking)?

        Would be nice to see the before and after.
        Actually, the first thing that my colleague in band said after playing a few notes on this horn were ''Isn't there a leak somewhere?'' so I guess it's not a silly question! I haven't found a leak yet so I just assume it's just how this horn blows. I don't think it actually changed so much from before the restoration, but after playing a totally different instrument for more than three months I guess I just have to get used to it again.
        Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
        2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

        Comment

        • Vito
          Member
          • Oct 2015
          • 96

          #5
          Originally posted by RickF View Post
          Man that horn looks gorgeous!! Not used to seeing the ‘round stamp’ logo on such shiny horn. These horns are notorious for having a sweet sound.

          Don’t know if another mpc would help with the horn requiring more air. Like John mentioned, maybe there’s a air leak some place. But... if the tone is still excellent maybe there’s no air leaking. Were you injured badly with the fall?
          No, I wasn't badly hurt fortunately, but thank you for your concern!
          Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
          2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

          Comment

          • Vito
            Member
            • Oct 2015
            • 96

            #6
            Here you can see the restoration progress in a more or less chronological order; from the damaged Instrument to what the horn is now!
            Kind regards,
            Vito
            Click image for larger version

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            Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
            2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

            Comment

            • TheJH
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2014
              • 339

              #7
              Regarding mouthpieces, I wouldn't go for a Schilke 51D. I used one on my Round Stamp for a while (mainly to get the horrible intonation in check on the 6th partial which... actually worked), but I HATED the additional resistance (that might just be my preference), and the sound was quite a bit less open compared to using my 5AL.
              Euphoniums
              2008 Willson 2960TA Celebration
              1979 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Round Stamp)
              Mouthpiece: Denis Wick SM4
              Baritone
              1975 Besson New Standard
              Mouthpiece: Courtois 10

              Comment

              • Clayton M.
                Member
                • Aug 2018
                • 92

                #8
                The photo with your disassembled horn in a basket reminded me of C3-P0 in The Empire Strikes Back!

                Glad you got your horn back, and I hope you can settle this mystery about a possible air leak with some satisfaction.
                Clayton M.
                Musician for Fun
                • Euphonium Newbie - XO 1270S
                • Trumpet Novice - XO 1602RS

                Comment

                • davewerden
                  Administrator
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 11137

                  #9
                  Usually an air leak will make the horn feel stuffy. It's possible that the repair job corrected some joints that were not smooth, which happened in many cases with the English Bessons. Some players have had good repair shops go through them and correct the misalignment. This is probably the case with some other brands as well. If any friends within reach have a Besson 2052 or a newer German Sovereign, you might give the horns a blow and see how they feel. The response is better with the German horns, probably because the factory has a method for more consistent alignment. Anyway, if the German Bessons also make you feel like it takes effort to keep the sound going, you may just have to work at playing in the new realm. If the horn feels freer, you may be playing more loudly than before, which is why the air goes away faster.
                  Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                  Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                  Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                  Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                  YouTube: dwerden
                  Facebook: davewerden
                  Twitter: davewerden
                  Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                  Comment

                  • John Morgan
                    Moderator
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 1885

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Vito View Post
                    Here you can see the restoration progress in a more or less chronological order; from the damaged Instrument to what the horn is now!
                    Kind regards,
                    Vito
                    Thanks for posting the pictures. Pretty neat. And out of the scrap pile and a bucket of bolts comes your amazing "new horn". Don't drop it!!!!!!!!!
                    John Morgan
                    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
                    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
                    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
                    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
                    Year Round Except Summer:
                    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
                    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
                    Summer Only:
                    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
                    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

                    Comment

                    • Vito
                      Member
                      • Oct 2015
                      • 96

                      #11
                      Originally posted by davewerden View Post
                      Usually an air leak will make the horn feel stuffy. It's possible that the repair job corrected some joints that were not smooth, which happened in many cases with the English Bessons. Some players have had good repair shops go through them and correct the misalignment. This is probably the case with some other brands as well. If any friends within reach have a Besson 2052 or a newer German Sovereign, you might give the horns a blow and see how they feel. The response is better with the German horns, probably because the factory has a method for more consistent alignment. Anyway, if the German Bessons also make you feel like it takes effort to keep the sound going, you may just have to work at playing in the new realm. If the horn feels freer, you may be playing more loudly than before, which is why the air goes away faster.
                      Hi Dave,
                      I think what you described is the case, as even with al valves pressed down there is almost no resistance. The instrument just plays extremely open and it will take a lot of practice to get back used to it. I actually played a Besson 2052 Prestige from 2012 and a Sovereign 967 from around 2000 (very late English production) before I got the Round Stamp and while it was getting repaired. Both are indeed more responsive and the prestige is particularly a very hard horn to play on, but the Sovereign could sing! For your interest, here is a side by side comparison with the Prestige and the Round Stamp.
                      Click image for larger version

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                      Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
                      2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

                      Comment

                      • Sara Hood
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 309

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Clayton M. View Post
                        The photo with your disassembled horn in a basket reminded me of C3-P0 in The Empire Strikes Back!
                        I was liking it because it really showed the conical versus cylindrical profiles of the tubing and how they go into building the horn. That is what they say gives the euphonium its sweet voice. It was amazing to see it go from a basket of plumbing to a complete horn though, I agree.
                        - Sara
                        Baritone - 3 Valve, Compensating, JinBao JBBR1240

                        Comment

                        • DEF1
                          Member
                          • Apr 2018
                          • 106

                          #13
                          Beautiful looking and typical of McQueens standard of work. The only thing that surprises me is that you didn’t get them to sort the trigger and mountings for a guard whilst it was in.
                          Enjoy and I’m sure you’ll get used to the feel of it in a few weeks of playing.
                          JP374 Sterling + Mercer and Barker GW3

                          Comment

                          • Vito
                            Member
                            • Oct 2015
                            • 96

                            #14
                            Originally posted by DEF1 View Post
                            Beautiful looking and typical of McQueens standard of work. The only thing that surprises me is that you didn’t get them to sort the trigger and mountings for a guard whilst it was in.
                            Enjoy and I’m sure you’ll get used to the feel of it in a few weeks of playing.
                            They sorted it quite alright I think, since the trigger wasn't even moving down anymore when I shipped the instrument to them! You can see in the pictures that I'm using a screw-on type bellyguard now.
                            Cheers
                            Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
                            2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

                            Comment

                            • DEF1
                              Member
                              • Apr 2018
                              • 106

                              #15
                              Sorry, didn’t see that Vito. Like I said before though, beautiful looking and I bet it sounds lovely.
                              JP374 Sterling + Mercer and Barker GW3

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