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Thread: Two weeks older, but moving Forward.

  1. #1
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    Jan 2019
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    Two weeks older, but moving Forward.

    When I started practicing my pBone, on January 3, I could only do 15 minutes before my embouchure checked out, and I致e now worked my way up to an hour of good quality practice, which has become the high point of my day.
    I hit a major disappointment last week, learning that a positive lead on a potential teacher had fizzled, so now I知 soldiering forward on my own. I知 hearing my tone improving on the pBone and my intonation and reading are strong, so I値l be starting into a temporary euphonium as of tomorrow and seeing how much I can teach myself.
    As a woodwind player I taught myself enough oboe and flute to enter a Master痴 level, 3 instrument major so I have some hope.
    A question- at some point within the next year I want to be focusing on tuba, and I see myself working with an Eb or F tuba by then. With that in mind I want to start euphonium in whatever clef would be easiest transfer to one of those tubas.
    The last time I was playing wind ensemble music, tuba parts were all in Bb or Eb, and I知 not sure I understand how bass or treble clef euphonium fingerings would fit with the keys tubas are available in.
    Appreciating all I知 learning from everyone here.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    NYC metro area
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    522
    Quote Originally Posted by ann reid View Post
    [snip]With that in mind I want to start euphonium in whatever clef would be easiest transfer to one of those tubas.
    The last time I was playing wind ensemble music, tuba parts were all in Bb or Eb, and I知 not sure I understand how bass or treble clef euphonium fingerings would fit with the keys tubas are available in.
    Appreciating all I知 learning from everyone here.
    My experience with wind ensembles is that euphonium and tuba parts are non-transposing bass clef. British style brass bands have these parts in transposing treble clef. The advantage of the British brass band system is that fingering is the same - for example, F on the first space is fingered first valve. In non-transposing bass clef, the euphonium would finger Eb as first valve down while an Eb tuba reading the same note would finger it open. I hope this helps.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
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    I wasn't going to get into this because experience in threads about transposing/non-transposing always get more complex than necessary. But this observation MAY help:

    In most (MOST) woodwind families, the instruments are all played and scored as transposing instruments: think of clarinets and saxophones. This means that the Eb alto sax player can sit down and immediately read and play the Eb baritone sax part, but can also sit down and immediately play the soprano, tenor, C melody (Ha! If you have one!), bass, and contrabass saxophone parts -- all WITH THE SAME FINGERINGS. Hold down your first three fingers on the keys and you're playing a G. Except it's not a CONCERT G (except on the C Melody sax) and it's actually a different pitch when played on an alto or bari vs. a tenor or soprano. And if you compare the written parts you'll see that they're quite different in terms of the notes that represent the same pitch (when the parts are in unison). If you're a woodwind player, you should be well familiar with these facts.

    Tubas and euphoniums are the other way around (so to speak). There's only ONE tuba part (generally speaking). It's THE TUBA PART. You have to know how to play it (proper fingerings) with YOUR TUBA (BBb, Eb, F, CC). In woodwind families, the fingerings remain the same but the parts change. In low brass families the part remains the same but the fingerings change.

    The exception is the British Brass Band where the ONLY non-transposing part is the bass trombone. In the BBB, the tuba (and euph) parts are all transposing -- so there are DIFFERENT parts (and differently pitched/notated parts) for the BBb and the EEb tubas, and they're all in treble clef!! Why? For basically the same reason that saxophones and clarinets are scored in this way: so that a player can switch among members of the family and not have to learn new/different fingerings. In fact, so a trumpet player can quickly pick up a baritone, euphonium, or tuba and just sit down and at least play with the "right" (SAME) fingerings.

    This is, of course, a bit of an over-simplification and largely devoid of any "theory". But I think it may provide some insight into how and why (in a practical sense) things are the way they are with tubas and their different "keys". (The "key" of a tuba really refers to the fundamental pitch of the open instrument -- basically, how long the tube is.)

    Sometimes even composers will be confused by this. A few years ago the community band I was in played a nice piece by a contemporary composer (then either at or visiting Duke University), and the tuba part had on it "Tuba in F". Complete nonsense. It was just (non-transposing) tuba. It wasn't even particularly appropriate to use an F tuba in playing it (which will definitely have a different tonal quality than a BBb or a CC). So I just played it on my compensating Eb and my section mate played it on her BBb -- same pitches but different fingerings.
    Last edited by ghmerrill; 02-27-2019 at 09:29 AM.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by ann reid View Post
    I see myself working with an Eb or F tuba by then.
    An Eb tuba -- great. An F tuba -- I don't recommend this for a variety of reasons I won't list right here. Stick with a BBb or Eb if you're interested primarily in community band and similar work. Consider a CC if you're interested primarily in orchestral work (though it's certainly not close to "necessary").

    With that in mind I want to start euphonium in whatever clef would be easiest transfer to one of those tubas.
    This can be deceiving. When I decided about 10 years ago to add a euphonium to my tuba playing, I thought it would be most straightforward because at the time I was playing a BBb tuba and the (Bb) euphonium was just an octave higher than that. So the fingerings should be the "same", eh?

    Not so fast -- as I quickly discovered and immediately felt very foolish. That change in tube length (about 16' to 8') puts the "same pitches" at different places in the harmonic series of each instrument. So while you often DO use the same fingering for a note, and in other cases you CAN use the same fingering for a note, there are a number of cases where you DON'T (or shouldn't -- for intonation or technique reasons) use the same fingerings for a note. Consequently, in terms of transitioning from BBb tuba to Bb euphonium, the similarity of fingerings is only partial.

    As a matter of fact, I don't seem to have any problem in learning new fingerings, even at my advanced age. So when I got rid of my BBb tuba after about 20 years and moved back to Eb (where I'd originally started), it was no real problem. And I find that switching between my Eb tuba and Bb euphonium isn't problematic either.

    Your experience may be different, but don't be deceived by an anticipated degree of similarity between the BBb tuba and Bb euphonium because they're both "in the key of Bb".
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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