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Thread: Discussion of Oil and Grease

  1. Ok well, I didn't expect the questions about valve oil to be so can-opening. For lack of consensus here, I've gone down the Googling rabbit hole 🐇 and not surprisingly, I get a lot of opinions stated as facts like when I ask Google for parenting advice. I thought the article below was helpful, though not altogether conclusive. I found a confounding number of reviews that say something like, "This is the best valve oil out there. It's the only one I've ever used." And I end up where many of you tried to help me start, which is that there is no definitive answer and I just have to see what works for me. I don't like that because I don't want to deal with gunk or possible erosion if I try the wrong stuff, but I guess it's the road we all must walk.

    What do y'all think of this advice?
    "If you decide to switch to synthetic, it is recommended that you get the instrument ultrasonically cleaned prior to switching."

    https://www.schoolmusiconline.com/ce...m-vs-synthetic

  2. I'm not sure about the ultrasonic part, but I do agree with a cleaning of the valves and block when switching between any two valve oils. I think it has less to do with petroleum versus synthetic and more to do with the different chemical formulations used by companies.

    I might have to start thinking about it myself, since I do use a petroleum oil (Al Cass) but will have to switch when my last bottle runs out. I bought it last summer even though I didn't need it because it's no longer being made.
    Whatever you lose, you'll find it again. What you throw away, you'll never get back.

    -- Kenshin Himura




    1974 B & H Imperial / Bach 3G -- no LTE mouthpieces for me!

  3. #23
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    Ah, the valve oil conundrum... I think this might be the single most discussed, argued, fussed over, etc. issue with playing the euphonium, with the possible exception of mouthpieces (which, on second thought, is probably the most discussed).

    I used whatever a music store had when I was young and "dumb" (I am now old and "dumb"). Throughout my life, I have tried virtually all of the valve oils, synthetic and non-synthetic. Hetman's gave me some extra nasty gunk in the valve block and other places. Yamaha synthetic did the same to a lesser degree. Al Cass and a few other of the non-synthetic ilk did okay. I tried Blue Juice for a while a couple years ago. Being an Army helicopter pilot (my years after the US Army Band), when using Blue Juice, the only thing missing from my helicopter days was the whirr of the rotors spinning (because of the jet fuel like aroma of Blue Juice). I must admit that after a while and when I got new bottles of the Blue Juice jet fuel, it smelled much less powerful, either because I got used to it (unlikely) or the Blue Juice people changed up something in their formula. But, with Blue Juice, I found it did not last very long on my valves, and I had to keep putting it on so often that it irritated me. I did not get build up of nasty stuff, so that part was good. But I did not find it slippery enough, my own subjective conclusion.

    Right at this moment in my life, I am using Monster Oil. It is a collaboration of some trumpet players from the same US Coast Guard Band as our Forum Administrator, Dave W. They sell it in various "grades", i.e., thin, regular, etc. Adams actually ships some of the Monster Oil with their horns in a Monster Oil bottle that has the Adams logo on it. Not sure if Adams still does this, but I got some with my horn about 3 years ago. I didn't use it then, but have now switched over to Monster Oil exclusively, for about the past six months or so. So that is the snapshot of me today. I won't hold my breath that I will stay with Monster Oil forever, but who knows. I don't seem to be getting the nasty gunk build up that I have experienced with every other synthetic oil, not sure why.

    My Adams horn is presently in the hands of Lee Stofer in Iowa getting a couple minor things done to it, plus he is going to do his "magic" on my valves. I think the valves in the Adams horn came to me with such tight tolerances that they have never seemed quite right, close, but no cigar. I manage with them, but I ultimately want valves that will always go faster than me and never stick whatsoever. Seems reasonable.

    So, I think it is true, that there is no definitive or perfect answer for everyone or anyone on which valve oil to use. It is a life long learning, experimenting, fussing around with experience. Once you think you have finally found the perfect oil, something will invariably happen to change your mind. Good Luck!!!
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  4. #24
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    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post

    be sure to read on pg3 too for Cebunker’s post regarding ‘synthetic oils’.
    Rick: I somehow missed that. Was there ever a follow-up? It's very interesting, but seems largely speculative (about the valve oil -- not what's known about biodiesel), and it leaves me wondering because of the vagueness remaining in it; and because there seems to be so much variability in reports about this gunk formation. Here are the questions I'm still puzzling over:


    1. Why do some people report slime problems with (say) Hetman oils, and other people don't? Wouldn't we expect to see the same bacteria in pretty much everyone's horns, and so the same phenomenon of slime formation in every Hetman user's horn?
    2. Why do some (even relatively many) people report slime problems with Hetman but no slime problems when switching to another synthetic oil? (This suggests that the slime problem is related to Hetman's oil in a way that it's not related to others -- whether bacteria are involved or not.)
    3. Why do the Hetman oils seem to have such a higher frequency of reports? The answer to this COULD, of course, be that there are just a lot more Hetman users out there. But the question does lead to ...
    4. How many different formulations of "synthetic valve oil" are there on the market and how do these differ with regard to their interaction with bacteria? For example Alisyn has been around for a very long time, but few (if any) people complain about green slime with it. I used it in a tuba for 10 years or more and never saw any green slime. Of course, it's POSSIBLE that I could as easily have used Hetman's and also never seen any green slime.
    5. Some people complain about green slime while using petroleum oils. -- possibly caused by verdigris. Has a purely chemical cause of the green slime actually been ruled out in the case of synthetic lubricating oils?
    6. What results do we specifically know (on the basis of experimental study) of precisely which bacteria interact with Hetman synthetic oil? Analogies to biodiesel can't support many claims about synthetic valve oil -- unless we know that biodiesel and Hetman's (and other valve oils) actually share precisely the same "slime causing" component. Even then, the analogy is only "suggestive". And the implied biochemical similarity appears inconsistent with the reports that some synthetic oils have the slime problems and others don't (or don't have it to nearly the same degree).
    7. In part this is puzzling/problematic (again) because of the significant variance in the reports: Why do some people report similar slime formation with both Hetman and (for example) Yamaha oil, but to a much lesser degree with Yamaha oil? And yet other people report no slime formation with Yamaha oil at all. Can this be explained on the basis of differing amounts of one or another component in the respective oils? Or can we demonstrate that there are in fact differences in the type or amounts of bacteria present in these differing cases? For a sense of the puzzling variance in appearance of green slime (and yet it's equally puzzling frequency with Hetman's), see this thread from almost 9 years ago: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic....=45979&start=0.



    CEBunker's posting was from almost 4 years ago. Were those experiments by high school students (or anyone else) to which he refers ever performed? Were the results published? I think this is actually of substantial interest -- or should be to the vendors of valve oil. If I were marketing a product like that and learned that it was interacting with bacteria to form green slime, I think I'd want to reflect on altering my formula to avoid that in some way. If I were marketing a product and knew it DIDN'T participate in green slime formation (and that this had been demonstrated in a laboratory) then I'd want to use that in my marketing. On the other hand, at this point surely people at Hetman are well aware of all the green slime reports, and so seem to be ignoring them.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #25
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    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post

    Right at this moment in my life, I am using Monster Oil. ... I don't seem to be getting the nasty gunk build up that I have experienced with every other synthetic oil, not sure why.

    As the Monstor people point out, there are three components to it: base oil (it's synthetic), solvent, copper passivator (anti-corrosion).

    Since everyone else is totally speculating about where the green slime comes from, bacteria, chemistry, etc., I might speculate that the anti-corrosion component may (perhaps with the user's own body chemistry) be inhibiting gunk formation by suppressing verdigris (or something similar). Or not. Maybe the copper in it is killing bacteria instead. Copper is like magic, right? Or perhaps the solvent is killing the bacteria. Or maybe it's working with the copper to eliminate verdigris AND kill the bacteria. Speculation is easy.

    A lot of maybes there. We're still not remotely out of the speculative woods.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #26
    My theory on the slime is evolving over time, but I don't have anything truly solid yet.

    I have observed a grayish-white slime in my own horns. It leans toward green, but perhaps it gets greener as time goes on.

    No oil I have used prevents this slime from building up (in the bottom valve caps especially). But some oils seem to make it take longer to appear.

    I strongly suspect that the slime is not actually from the oil, but rather that it is an organic build-up due to humans playing the horn and that some oils prevent it better. This could either be due to an agent in the oil and/or the "washing" properties of standard oil.

    In my case, the quickest build-up I saw was with Alisyn.

    Speaking of Alisyn, they thought it important enough to get all standard oil removed from the horn that they sold their own cleaning product.

    Lee Stofer is sold on Hetman (and in fact sells it himself). Unlike most others I have talked to, Lee likes to use a lot of it! He even likes to put some in the caucades because of the corrosion-resistant properties. After Lee worked on my horn, I have been using Hetman #1 and lots of it. But it lasts for several days before I need more. The "staying power" is indeed better that my Blue Juice was, and using generous quantities did not cause any slowness. This is the longest stretch I have used a synthetic with no problems (6 weeks). During one of my recent oilings I noticed the piston vents were about 1/3 closed with slime-like matter, and I cleaned them.

    It does seem to me that standard oil cleans better. I would still use it for a new horn, thinking it might dissolve any leftover "stuff" from production. So if I had a new horn to break in, I'd use the standard stuff for a month or so, clean the valves, and switch to Hetman. As of now, at least. Six weeks is not exactly a long-term test.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. I read a thread on trumpetherald.com in which a representative from Ultra Pure replied that if you mix UP oil with a lanolin-based slide grease, they would react to produce white gunk. She said switching to UP slide grease, which does not contain lanolin, would eliminate the issue. Presumably, switching to an oil that doesn't react with lanolin would also eliminate the issue.

    That doesn't explain all the issues being discussed, but it does sort of make sense for the white gunk.

  8. #28
    Gary-

    i grant you that the biofilm idea is speculative. But it is informed speculation based on my professional experience dealing with commercial and industrial water systems, and seeing the biofilms that exist in these environments.

    My father who was a dentist used to say that the human mouth is the dirtiest place in the body, barring none based on the number and variety of germs found there. given the number of bacterial oral issues that exist in some people and not others (gingivitis, halitosis, etc) it is certainly plausible that people have different levels of whatever bacteria is causing the slime.

  9. #29
    Thanks for the link, Mr. Rick and a very interesting discussion going on!

    I decided to try the Hetmann because I read somewhere about the anti-corrosion properties, wasn't expecting more gunk.

    I am guessing the climate plays a factor too, since it's probably more humid and moist (like where I am) where some people are at and it would cause the gunk to build up faster?
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

  10. #30
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJH View Post
    Here in the Netherlands, La Tromba is a very popular petroleum-based valve oil brand. Never failed me. I don't know if it's available in the USA but if it is, give it a try.
    I never paid much attention to what I used to lubrificate the pistons: once I used a lubricant called "Fast": the Courtois I played for 20 years required very little lubrication, could also spends months of daily work and always remained fast and efficient ( I know, you will not believe it but it so). On that euphonium the pistons were exceptional, short run and no loss from the hoods ( they had no nipples and you could not install a water collector, but never dropped a drop of water from there), despite the very narrow tolerance between the chambers and the pistons ( if you stop the lower hole and push the button it did not go down, or with the depressed piston and the plugged hole it did not go up). With the Besson Prestige the pistons are equally efficient, but a lot of condensation comes out of the caps and collects in the tank which needs to be emptied frequently. I used, in the years, various lubricants, Fast, Holton and, recently, "La tromba". With the latter there was a notable increase in green mush, which was previously not present. Now I switched to Hertman 1* and the mud is almost gone. Since others, with Hertman, have noticed an increase of the green mush, I must deduce that it is caused by the chemical reaction of individual saliva with the various lubricants and will have different effects between different subjects.
    Last edited by franz; 02-10-2019 at 12:04 PM.
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

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