Euphonium Shank Sizes

[davewerden]

Euphonium mouthpieces come in 3 sizes. There is the small, tenor-trombone-size shank, which fits a Yamaha 321 and most of the old American baritone/euphonium instruments. The middle size, which is called the Euro shank, fits the old Bessons (pre 1974) and most Willsons. And the large, bass-trombone-size shank fits most modern euphoniums.

Speaking a little roughly, if you measure the small end of the mouthpiece, you'll find this:

Small, tenor trombone-size shank: 7/16" or 11mm
Large, bass trombone-size shank: 1/2" or 12mm

The medium (European) shank measures about halfway between the other 2, or 15/32" or 11.5mm

I checked with a AAA battery, and the diameter is very close to the end of the small shank mouthpiece. The AAA battery ALMOST fits inside the end of the large shank.

[John Morgan]

Euphonium mouthpieces come in 3 sizes. There is the small, tenor-trombone-size shank, which fits a Yamaha 321 and most of the old American baritone/euphonium instruments. The middle size, which is called the Euro shank, fits the old Bessons (pre 1974) and most Willsons. And the large, bass-trombone-size shank fits most modern euphoniums.....

Well, sort of. There is probably some confusion with the "tenor trombone" size shank. Most symphony model "tenor trombones" take the exact same sized shank as the bass trombone and most modern euphoniums, that is, large shank. Smaller bore "tenor trombones", like the King 3B or Yamaha YSL-891Z with a bore size of .508 take the small shank mouthpiece. So, for a "tenor trombone", the shank size may be either small or large depending usually on the bore of the particular trombone.

All of my large shank euphonium mouthpieces fit in my Edwards tenor trombone.

[davewerden]

Good point, John. This terminology stuff is hard!!

[ghmerrill]

So are there no euphs/baritones that have the Remington or Olds shanks found with trombones (which are, I believe, different from the three you mention)?

[davewerden]

So are there no euphs/baritones that have the Remington or Olds shanks found with trombones (which are, I believe, different from the three you mention)?

I don't consider myself very knowledgeable on such things. I do know that the Conn Connstellation had a somewhat unique receiver, so that a medium-shank Wick didn't fit perfectly. However, it fit pretty well, and beyond that approximation we get into the taper. My measurement were made at the end of the shank and as a quick way to answer questions such as the one that prompted this post from today. But two mouthpieces could have identical end-of-shank size but a different taper; one might fit a given horn and one might not.

HOWEVER, for general conversation purposes, most of the old American horns and the current crop of small-shank horns would accept a standard small-shank mouthpiece with similar comfort. Most medium-shank horns you find would be old Bessons and certain Willsons, which take the current crop of medium-shank mouthpieces well. And in large mouthpieces you'll be fine with most of the newer compensating horns. (We have discussed on the forum some receivers or mouthpiece shanks that are ever-so-slightly "off" so the mouthpiece rocks a bit in the receiver; I don't think we came to a conclusion about why this happens, assuming it is intentional.)

[iiipopes]

So are there no euphs/baritones that have the Remington or Olds shanks found with trombones (which are, I believe, different from the three you mention)?

Since I was on an instrument safari in the last few years, I never saw any current production instruments that had the Remington or Olds shanks. I did see several places that could order a mouthpiece with one of these shanks.

[ghmerrill]

I wouldn't expect any current or recent production instruments to have receivers of those sizes. I was curious whether there might be vintage (meaning, I'm afraid, at this point perhaps even the 60s-70s) euphoniums that had them -- or whether it was just a trombone thing.

[daruby]

So are there no euphs/baritones that have the Remington or Olds shanks found with trombones (which are, I believe, different from the three you mention)?

The Conn Connstellation (24I/25I) has a "medium" Remington shank. It is the same taper but just slightly larger than Euro medium shank. You can get a Wick medium shank mouthpiece or DEG medium shank mouthpiece to work nicely by machining or filing off about 1/4" from the end of the shank. The Conn comes with a Conn 5 mouthpiece in the Remington shank. I always hated this mouthpiece so for years I used a Bach 6 1/2 AL and the adapter that came with the Conn. The Conn adapter would also work in a Besson New Standard but the adapter that came with the New Standard would not work in the Conn.

I currently use either a Bach 5G with adapter or a shaved Wick 5BM on my 24I.

Doug

[bbocaner]

The last page of the Bach mouthpiece manual has all the dimensions for the stem of small stem and large stem trombone mouthpieces, as well as many others such as contrabass trombone, American tuba, etc. This is Bach's take on it, but Bach mouthpieces are ubiquitous enough that I consider their measurements to be "standard."

https://www.bachbrass.com/applicatio...l_1889_web.pdf

[iiipopes]

The Conn Connstellation (24I/25I) has a "medium" Remington shank. It is the same taper but just slightly larger than Euro medium shank. You can get a Wick medium shank mouthpiece or DEG medium shank mouthpiece to work nicely by machining or filing off about 1/4" from the end of the shank. The Conn comes with a Conn 5 mouthpiece in the Remington shank. I always hated this mouthpiece so for years I used a Bach 6 1/2 AL and the adapter that came with the Conn. The Conn adapter would also work in a Besson New Standard but the adapter that came with the New Standard would not work in the Conn.

I currently use either a Bach 5G with adapter or a shaved Wick 5BM on my 24I.

Doug

I must disagree. The Remington taper is a slightly different angle than the "medium" shank size of, for example, the Besson/B&H Euph receivers prior to the mid '70's.

From the Doug Elliot Catalog:
"Notes for ordering shanks: The letter on the shank must match the letter on the cup: for example, a standard large shank for a J cup is a J8. All shanks should fit into the receiver 1". Large (bass) shanks: Bach, new Conn, Edwards, Holton, Shires, and Yamaha tenor and bass trombones, and all large shank euphoniums, use the standard large shank. Older Conn and Blessing large tenor and bass trombones require a different taper - specify Conn shank for proper fit. King duo gravis, 7B, 8B, and Benge 290 can use standard, but sometimes need a specially tapered “K” shank for a better fit."

From the Wedge mouthpiece website:
"Our most popular standard Wedge trombone models currently available for alto, tenor and bass trombone are shown in the comparison chart below. We offer mouthpieces with the usual Small shank and / or Large shank, depending on the mouthpiece size.
To browse our complete line of brass and plastic models, visit our secure and convenient Online Store.

Remington shank mouthpieces are available for tenor sizes 6.5AL, 5G, 5GS, 4G, and 3G. The Remington shank is a large shank with slightly slower Brown and Sharp taper compared to the regular Morse taper. It is used in certain (mostly vintage) tenor and bass trombones with a Remington receiver. Examples of these horns include Elkhart Conn 8H, 88H, 60H, 62H, 70H-73H, and others. The modern 88H accepts a regular Morse taper mouthpiece. A Morse taper mouthpiece will not seat properly in a Remington receiver, and notes will not slot or speak as well as they would with a Remington shank mouthpiece. A Remington shank will not insert far enough into a regular receiver, and will wobble because the tip is larger than a regular large shank mouthpiece.

Medium European shanks for available for trombone sizes 6.5AL, 5G, 4G, and 3G and for all euphonium sizes.

Some bass trombones, for example some vintage King models, have an extra deep receiver. If your mouthpiece inserts more than 1.25 inches (31 mm) into your leadpipe be sure to select the BT Deep Receiver option when ordering bass trombone mouthpieces. We also offer brass and Delrin trombone screw rims compatible with Doug Elliott ST, LT, XT, SB, and LB cups."

And see page 16 of this publication:
http://redwingmusicrepair.org/portfo..._%20shanks.pdf

Post #10 by Doug Elliot in this thread:
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...n#.XEUhGPZFyM8
"I'm not sure exactly the specs of the Conn euph receiver but I'm pretty sure it is entirely unrelated to what is considered a "Remington" shank as found on old 88H's. That is a completely different size and taper, a bit larger than a standard large shank and with less taper. I think you are really talking about slight variations of the "Euro" medium euphonium shank and you should leave Remington out of it."

[bbocaner]

I wouldn't expect any current or recent production instruments to have receivers of those sizes.

I think they stopped doing this now, but as recent as a few years ago Conn 88H trombones were shipping with several removable leadpipes, and one of them had a remington taper receiver in it.

[daruby]

I must disagree. The Remington taper is a slightly different angle than the "medium" shank size of, for example, the Besson/B&H Euph receivers prior to the mid '70's.

iiipopes. I knew that the CONN 24I/25I were not the same as the 88H Remington shank. So I will agree it is not Remington. Everything else that I said is true.

A Euro medium shank will bottom out and not engage in the receiver without being shaved. If 1/4" or so is removed, it will work nicely. The Conn tenor shank adapter that came with the Connstellation worked nicely in the Besson New Standard, but the Besson adapter that came with the older medium shank New Standards would wobble in the Conn. I have played with this adaptation (pun intended) since 1965 when I played my first Connstellation (still have one).

[davewerden]

I just deleted a post because it was getting more pointed than I'm comfortable with. Let's all be respectful, and avoid sarcasm. Thanks!

[Will]

Euphonium mouthpieces come in 3 sizes. There is the small, tenor-trombone-size shank, which fits a Yamaha 321 and most of the old American baritone/euphonium instruments. The middle size, which is called the Euro shank, fits the old Bessons (pre 1974) and most Willsons. And the large, bass-trombone-size shank fits most modern euphoniums.

Speaking a little roughly, if you measure the small end of the mouthpiece, you'll find this:

Small, tenor trombone-size shank: 7/16" or 11mm
Large, bass trombone-size shank: 1/2" or 12mm

The medium (European) shank measures about halfway between the other 2, or 15/32" or 11.5mm

I checked with a AAA battery, and the diameter is very close to the end of the small shank mouthpiece. The AAA battery ALMOST fits inside the end of the large shank.

The length of the shank of a mouthpiece can vary within a given taper size. Also, some mouthpieces have had the end shortened for various reasons (damage, "gap" adjustment etc.) This matters when measuring the end of the shank to determine mouthpiece size because the longer the shank, the smaller the diameter at the end and obviously the shorter the shank, the wider the end diameter due to it being tapered.

What actually matters is the inside diameter of the receiver which the mouthpiece shank goes into.
Kelly Mouthpieces has a nice chart giving these dimensions:

https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/shanks/index.asp

After reading some of the discussions on mouthpiece to lead-pipe "gap" as well as other threads on poorly fitting shanks, I think the problem some people are encountering is the end of the mouthpiece shank bottoming out against the lead-pipe inside the receiver such that the taper of the shank does not quite fully seat into the taper of the receiver. Filing off a bit of the end of the shank would fix this. Note that unlike an adjustable gap receiver, this is simply allowing the mouthpiece to fully seat into the receiver. An adjustable gap allows for tuning of the tubing prior to the valve section. Most people will never encounter a problem in this. But, in the world of repair of student/school instruments, the receiver and lead-pipes can take a beating in the field and may need to be rebuilt/replaced. The slight variations in mouthpiece shank length and tuning problems can become evident if a receiver is set too far in or out when it is replaced.

[TD517]

Since this has been revived, I have a weird question.

I tried a King 2280 years ago and even though it's marked as a "large shank" receiver, none of my mouthpieces seemed to fit correctly. It wasn't completely incorrect, but just didn't "fit" and snug into place. I used Schilke and Wick mp's, but I don't think I tried a large shank Bach. Then more recently I tried a Yamaha Bass Trombone and had the same issue. This one came with a Schilke 59 that I tried in my Euph and noticed it stuck out farther than in the Bass Trombone.

Is there a specific "Bass Trombone" shank out there, different from a Large Shank?