Euphonium Shank Sizes

[jervin]

Is there a shank size for British style baritone that is the diameter of a trumpet mouthpiece? I picked up an old Pierre Sartel horn that turned out to be in Bb (high pitch) with a trumpet mouthpiece fitting in it.

[davewerden]

Is there a shank size for British style baritone that is the diameter of a trumpet mouthpiece? I picked up an old Pierre Sartel horn that turned out to be in Bb (high pitch) with a trumpet mouthpiece fitting in it.

I had a similar instrument a few decades ago. It was a Champion Silver Piston. I THINK this was a Bb tenor horn, and the mouthpiece that came with (not sure if it was original equipment) it had a trumpet size shank and a cup in between a trumpet and euphonium size.

I sanded down a tenor trombone mouthpiece enough that it fit in a quarter inch or so and used it like a baritone.

[bbocaner]

19th and early 20th century all bets are off as far as shank sizes, there are so many variations. I have a few Bb tenor horns that have much smaller receivers than modern small shank.

Champion Silver Piston I believe was sold by Lyon & Healy and manufactured by Bohland and Fuchs in what is now Czech Republic.

I don't know too much about Pierre Sartel, this page suggests it was a fictitious name for Bohland and Fuchs instruments sold by a music store in Cleveland, but the NMM web site shows a few from their collection and says made in Paris... so... who knows.

http://www.brasshistory.net/McMillin%20History.pdf


My approach for mouthpieces for instruments like these is to find original mouthpieces - go to music stores and ask to look at all their used mouthpieces. Once in a while their big tubs of used mouthpieces will have some of these antiques that will fit. These instruments tend to play better with period mouthpieces, too - intonation just works better.

[jervin]

Thank you Dave and Barry for the information! I'll see if I can find an old timey mouthpiece to fit it and in the meantime try fitting a small shank trombone mouthpiece for now.

Joe

[Jim Babbitt]

Sounds like a place to revisit one of my old questions.
In my collection is a 1924 Buescher Double Bell.
Mouthpiece receiver appears to be in good shape and unmodified.
It appears to need something slightly larger than a small shank / tenor mouthpiece, but slightly smaller than my Denis Wick medium shanks.
Bach small shank goes in too far and the Denis Wick medium shank not far enough.
Anybody got some experience with vintage Buescher Euphs?
Eventually will get around to a custom adapter.
Thanks,
Jim

[notaverygoodname]

I hate to be a random new guy that bumps an old thread, but this info needs to exist. I only just recently learned some of this the hard way. If you have a horn needing an obscure shank size, contact Josef Klier. They've helped me out a lot, and they're getting another big order from me when they get back from vacation. The numbers are as measured from the end of the mouthpiece shank.

Normal 5% taper sizes that I know of (relevant to Tenor and Bass instruments):

9.8mm/10mm - German Flugelhorn shank, Alto Horn, Trumpet, etc.
A real Trumpet mouthpiece will have a tiny wobble in a real 10mm shank receiver. Supposedly, there are French made Alto Trombones with this shank.
Shout out to the jHorn.

10.5mm - Large Alto Shank, Large Parforcehorn Shank, Alto/Baroque/Fanfare Trumpet Shank (?)
This is the shank size for large bore ovalform Althorns, and older Alto Trombones. Very difficult to tell the difference from small tenor unless you compare backbores.
You can probably find some of the smaller Bb Tenorhorn's in this shank. If you have something that seems to kinda fit a Trumpet or Trombone mouthpiece, it's probably this. Good luck with backbore.

10.8mm/11mm - Small Tenor Shank

11.5mm - "Baritone" Shank
To produce this size, just use Bach 381 "extension" (adapter) on a small shank mouthpiece.
Supposedly the typical size for European Baritones. Definitely used on the Soviet Tenorhorns. I thought this was just some poorly done 11mm shank until I bought a proper vintage mouthpiece.
This is not the same as Besson medium shank, but it might work in a pinch.

12mm - Russian Baritone Shank
Russian Rotary Baritones are using this super obscure shank size.
Close to medium shank.

12.5mm - Bass Trombone shank, Large Tenor Trombone shank, Small Tuba shank

12.65mm - Contrabass Trombone shank, that "other" Bass Trombone shank
Confirmed with an example. If your large shank mouthpiece seem to drop just a hair too far into your Bass Trombone, it's probably this.

13mm - Bach Contrabass Trombone shank, Vienna Tuba

13.5mm - Tuba shank.


Some other stuff:

Proprietary tapers! I purchased an old Besson just to check these. For Conn and Besson proprietary shanks, the taper is CLOSE to 5%, but it's not the same. Close enough, but expect plenty of scuffing and other issues if you mix and match or have something made. I had made a mouthpiece specifically with a 1:19 taper and can confirm that Besson medium shank is 1:19 (5.263%). 9 minute of angle doesn't sound like much, but it's enough.

10.5mm? - I think this is the Olds proprietary shank?
I never had a mouthpiece in this size, but my 1955ish Trombonium had this proprietary receiver. A 10.5mm mouthpiece worked with some nasty wobble, and an old Conn fit, but stuck out way too far.
Seriously, if you have a horn with this...just ream it out until it plays in tune with something normal.

11mm - Conn Small Shank
Old versions of the 20-I and other "small shank" horns that aren't actually small shank.
Very deep insertion depth.

11.5mm - Conn Medium Shank
I think this is what the 24I and 25I are using? Probably other models. I have a Precision series mouthpiece with this shank.
If your medium shank horn doesn't bottom out, this will fit with no obvious issues.

~11.7mm @ 1:19 (5.263%) - Besson medium shank (Euro Shank) [confirmed]
Besson Euphoniums and really old B&F stencil Eb Tubas (Couesnon, Bruno NY, Goumat, etc)
11.5mm Baritone Shank will fit with considerable scuffing and possible wobble if the leadpipe bore is large enough.
12mm is a closer match.
Confirmed that taper is 1:19 by having a custom mouthpiece made for my Eb Bass.

13mm - Conn Large "Remington" Shank
Bought a Remington 6 1/2 AL-LR for cheap just so I could measure it and confirm what it is.
This is an enormous shank type. It's longer and visibly larger than even 12.65mm bass trombone shank.
Apparently Brown and Sharpe taper, which I guess means 4.18% taper.