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Thread: 4th valve slide moves out on its own !

  1. 4th valve slide moves out on its own !

    Hello all,

    I got a Besson 967S which I had just 100% overhauled by a master instrument builder.
    All slides feel snug and it takes some effort ( a few pounds of force) to get them moving, just as they should


    Here is the thing though: When I play a single song the slide of the 4th valve moves out by around 2 inches. Yes two inches. On its own. During 4 minutes of playing.
    Again, the slide feels very snug.
    All 4 valves seem in the correct position.
    The instrument plays fine.
    This happens regardless if you use the 4th valve or not.

    Has anyone ever seen something like that?

    Thanks
    Helle

  2. What lubricating grease are you using. I would suggest Hetman #7 slide gel.
    Sterling Virtuoso 1052HS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,017
    Did the master instrument builder build in the self-tuning system? Maybe you're constantly playing a bit sharp on 4th valve notes and the instrument is attempting to compensate?

    What does the master instrument builder say about this phenomenon?
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Maybe it is caused by air pressure developing when you are playing.

    Not sure what kind of flaw would cause this, but you can test it.

    Sometimes the 2nd valve can pop out; using a heavier grease often corrects it. That's what Doug was getting at. Make sure this isn't the case.

    Then, pull the slide, place your finger over one opening, then play through all of the valve combinations (including all up). You shouldn't feel any pressure on your finger.

    Then do the same thing for the other open tube.

    -Carroll

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Anderson, Indiana
    Posts
    224
    I think that daruby is on the right track. Hetman makes a full range of tuning slide lubes, so switching to a "heavier" lube such as a Hetman 7, 7.5 or 8 might be a cheap, quick fix.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,017
    I don't get the conjunction of

    (a) All slides feel snug and it takes some effort ( a few pounds of force) to get them moving, just as they should. ... Again, the slide feels very snug.

    and

    (b)
    When I play a single song the slide of the 4th valve moves out by around 2 inches.

    This suggests that there must be some significant force being applied in order for (b) to occur, and that the slide isn't simply "falling" out because the lubricating medium is too thin. 2 inches is a LOT to move if a slide is "snug". And where would any pressure come from? The air going into the instrument simply goes through it and a standing wave is set up by the lip buzz. So I wouldn't expect there to be any pressure measurable except perhaps by some very sensitive equipment -- and certainly not enough to be "forcing" a "snug" slide to move.

    Maybe "snug" doesn't really mean snug, but more like "not falling out all by itself if the instrument is held without any motion or playing"? In that case, Doug's suggestion seems entirely appropriate.

    ?????

    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  7. daruby wrote:
    <"What lubricating grease are you using. I would suggest Hetman #7 slide gel. ">


    That is exactly what is being used ! (....while the problem is happening)
    Last edited by helle; 11-19-2018 at 12:21 PM.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by carbogast View Post
    Maybe it is caused by air pressure developing when you are playing.

    Not sure what kind of flaw would cause this, but you can test it.

    Sometimes the 2nd valve can pop out; using a heavier grease often corrects it. That's what Doug was getting at. Make sure this isn't the case.

    Then, pull the slide, place your finger over one opening, then play through all of the valve combinations (including all up). You shouldn't feel any pressure on your finger.

    Then do the same thing for the other open tube.

    -Carroll

    Great suggestion !
    I tried it and ... No air is moving/leaking from other valves into the 4.th valve

  9. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I don't get the conjunction of

    (a) All slides feel snug and it takes some effort ( a few pounds of force) to get them moving, just as they should. ... Again, the slide feels very snug.

    and

    (b)
    When I play a single song the slide of the 4th valve moves out by around 2 inches.

    This suggests that there must be some significant force being applied in order for (b) to occur, and that the slide isn't simply "falling" out because the lubricating medium is too thin. 2 inches is a LOT to move if a slide is "snug". And where would any pressure come from? The air going into the instrument simply goes through it and a standing wave is set up by the lip buzz. So I wouldn't expect there to be any pressure measurable except perhaps by some very sensitive equipment -- and certainly not enough to be "forcing" a "snug" slide to move.

    Maybe "snug" doesn't really mean snug, but more like "not falling out all by itself if the instrument is held without any motion or playing"? In that case, Doug's suggestion seems entirely appropriate.

    ?????

    Well, it takes some effort to get the offending 4th valve slide removed (Hetmann#7 grease, sticky stuff, you need to use some muscle)
    And when I play a single song the slide of the 4th valve moves out by around 2 inches.


    When I play, I can feel vibrations on the 4th valve slide. I'm now suspecting that the vibrations are "walking" out the slide.
    Kind of like a piezo motor





    So I checked if any soldering is loose on that slide, but it's fine. The amount of vibrations I can feel on the 4th slide also does not seem to be excessive, just normal for a played horn, I guess?
    I'm baffled.

    The guy who overhauled the instrument has not seen it yet, and he has a hard time believing it. It's a little haul to get to his place which is why I haven't showed him yet.

    I will try to make a video .....
    Last edited by helle; 11-19-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #10
    I hate to ask a silly question, but have you ruled out pressure from your left forearm pushing on it? Otherwise, it is a great mystery! A video might be helpful.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams E3, Denis Wick 4AL (classic)
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

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