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Thread: Playing Bass Trombone and Euph - Is It Bad for Your Chops?

  1. I double on euphonium and English baritone. The sound concept, air, and mouthpiece choices are very different for each. For me, the euph is a big full sound on a medium large mouthpiece (compared with BT) such as Wick 3-4 or Bach 3-4. Relaxed "warm" air (much like tuba) and focus on keeping everything relaxed and "open". English baritone is much more like tenor trombone (if not the same). More focused embouchure, faster air and a smaller mouthpiece (I use a Bach 5G). Any attempt on my part to try to play baritone using similar rim/cup size as euphonium has always met failure. The horns just do not respond the same way. It took me 2+ years to get to the point where I could easily switch between the two.

    OTOH, when I double tuba parts on my euph, I sometimes pull out my Bach 1 1/2G, a bass trombone MPC if ever there were one. I can honk out oom-pahs down to pedal Eb nicely! I can also get a nice tone with vibrato down to pedal Db. (pedal C/Cb just sound like "lip-flap")
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,370
    Unless I've missed something, we've all been offering feedback and advice without knowing exactly what instrument is being played. What does "bass trombone" mean here? While most of what's been said is reasonable for most "generic" bass trombones, there can be some differences among the single-valve horns, the independent double-valves, and dependent double-valves. And a lot of people play the "bass trombone" part (or maybe just 3rd trombone part) on a large bore tenor (like a Conn 88H -- which, when I was in high school, was actually considered to be a bass trombone). When I hear "bass trombone", I think "double valve" and .562-ish bore since that's what I play. But there's a lot of variation around -- as reflected in Aharoni's book and treatments of some of the current possibilities.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Richmond, KY
    Posts
    24
    The instrument is a double (dependent) valve bass. I believe it's a yamaha, and I can get a specific model tomorrow, if needed. The two valves are tuned to F and D.

  4. #14
    As a euph-bass trombone doubler myself, I would find it pretty much impossible to play the same mouthpiece on both.

    If I were to use my Alliance DC2 on a bass trombone, I would not have any issues hitting all of the notes (down in the pedal range and beyond), but the sound - the concept of sound that I have in my head - would be very difficult to achieve.

    Mouthpiece choice is, for me, about 50% how it feels and about 50% how it sounds. My Alliance DC2 feels great on euphonium and I think it sounds it pretty good, too. My Wick 00AL feels great on bass bone and sounds alright, too. If I were to switch horns with them, it wouldn't be very comfortable and it wouldn't sound anywhere near where I want it to.
    University of Miami - BM Euphonium Performance '21
    Indiana University - MM Bass Trombone and Euphonium Performance '24



    Besson Prestige 2052S
    Courtois 551BHRA
    Conn 88HCLSGX
    Various Greg Black mouthpieces

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
    Posts
    472
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Pretty much what John Morgan said. I've tried using the same mouthpiece on both instruments and it's an unhappy and frustrating result. If you look in my sig, you'll see the mouthpieces I use on both instruments. But I also (for ME) regard something the size of the Doug Yeo mouthpiece to be way too large. Similarly, a Schilke 60 doesn't work for me across the range. It took me a lot of experimentation with a number of mouthpieces before capitulating to Doug Elliott's.

    One piece of advice: Don't try to go "too large" with the bass trombone mouthpiece. This is highly variable and individualistic. And keep in mind that a bass trombone player (even in a lot of "community band parts") is expected to have an upper range very close to that of the 1st tenor (and certainly of the 2nd tenor) while also having a low range extending into the pedal range with the valves. That isn't easy. Many bass trombonists use a mouthpiece smaller than the DE one I have (which I'd say is roughly equivalent to about a 1.5/1.25-ish piece). In fact, I just recently changed to a 112 rim in order to get a little better access to the pedal stuff -- and the result is it's thrown off my higher register (keep getting the wrong partials!) and I'm working on getting that back.

    In terms of the sound, I know exactly where you're coming from. It took me the longest time to get what I felt was a good trombone sound from the horn -- instead of a "obviously a tuba/euphonium player on the wrong instrument" sound. I feel that my embouchure on the trombone is different from my embouchure on the euph (and certainly the tuba), but others will disagree.
    Exactly my experience except it was with a standard trombone, in my case a Bach 42BO. I went with something like a Schilke 58 and the sound was too round and dark. A comment someone made was I sounded like a euphonium on trombone.

  6. #16
    It's not the rim size alone that defines the sound a mouthpiece helps produce. I use a warburton Demondrae on euph, and a custom warburton 7ST (with Demondrae's rim) on tenor trombone, and my euph and trombone sound concepts couldn't be more different.

    Both mouthpieces have the identical 1.03" id mouth opening.

    Don.

  7. I practice frequently on bass trombine with a Bach 1G mouthpiece, and I find that it effectively "over trains" my lungs and embouchure for the euphonium and makes it easier to play.
    James Kircoff
    Genesee Wind Symphony - principal euphonium (Adams E3 Custom .60mm yellow brass bell w/ K&G 3.5)
    Capital City Brass Band (2019 NABBA 2nd section champions) - 1st baritone (Besson BE956 w/ Denis Wick 6BY)

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Richmond, KY
    Posts
    24
    I tried out a Yamaha Japan Douglas Yeo today. That thing is massive! Killed my range and articulation, too. But, my lower range definitely has a more trombone-like sound quality, and the mouthpiece added a major third to the bottom of my range. I can hit a high Bb, but anything above a Bb3 or so is very difficult to play and sounds pretty pinched. My chops were exhausted after playing an hour of Verdi, and I spent the class trying not to fall out of my chair from being so light-headed.

    Should I stick with this mouthpiece for a while and see how it goes? It doesn't feel bad per se, but it's not as comfortable as my Schilke. It does offer a more characteristic sound, and I think I could grow use to it. I think it's mainly air adjustment for the most part, but the fatigue after such a short time worries me.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for a mouthpiece that might offer a little more familiarity? I'm not sure that "toilet-bowl" mouthpieces such as the Yeo are the way to go, just because they feel SO much different. I've considered looking to a Bach 1G (or 1 1/2G) or maybe a Schilke 60/58, but I'm not sure how they'd compare to my 52E2 or if they'd be worth the cost. The Schilke 58 seems like a good option for a middle of the road mouthpiece, with the 60 being just slightly larger, but I've never seen nor played one.

  9. #19
    Based on what you just said above, then I would look towards some "mid-size" bass bone mouthpieces - Schilke 58 and Bach 1 1/2G being the prime examples.

    I started my bass trombone playing on a Bach 1 1/2G. After about 16 months, I moved up to a little bit of a larger one - a Ferguson JR. I was again on that piece for over year and a half until I switched to my Wick 00AL. If you want to go big, that's totally fine, and may even be good for your sound in the long run. But you'll want to work up to it over time.
    University of Miami - BM Euphonium Performance '21
    Indiana University - MM Bass Trombone and Euphonium Performance '24



    Besson Prestige 2052S
    Courtois 551BHRA
    Conn 88HCLSGX
    Various Greg Black mouthpieces

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,370
    On the smallish side, you could try a Wick 2NAL. There are people who successfully use these on bass trombone. But I don't like the sound the Wick pieces give me on bass.

    After all the bass trombone mouthpieces I tried, the one I've kept for my "backup" in case some tragedy befalls my DE LB is the Stork BT 1.5. (http://storkcustom.com/trombone-mouthpieces/). Note that this is described as "a variation on the 1.25". My own (highly subjective, of course) perception is that it's like a "small 1.25" or a "large 1.5" or maybe a "deep 1.5" -- but better than the Bachs. I really do like it -- just not as much as the DE. Not too expensive -- about $66 from several sources.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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