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Thread: Besson France "Systeme Prototype" 4-valve euphonium or baritone horn?

  1. Besson France "Systeme Prototype" 4-valve euphonium or baritone horn?

    Hello,

    I was wondering if anyone would be able to confirm whether a Besson France "Systeme Prototype" 4-valve euphonium that I've just acquired is in fact a euphonium or baritone horn or indeed something else?!

    It is stamped:

    Systeme Prototype
    I.BESSON
    BREVETÉ
    SGDG
    PARIS
    66 HAUTES RÉCOMPENSES
    6 GRANDS PRIX
    HORS CONCOURS
    MEMBRE DU JURY
    MADE IN FRANCE
    97943

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    Thanks in advance,

    --
    Chris

  2. #2
    Welcome to the forum!

    I would guess that is a Saxhorn, and from its shape I'd say the sound would be more euphonium-like. It is almost surely not a British-style baritone horn, given the fact that the tubing is so conical.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  3. Agreed. Saxhorn.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  4. #4
    agreed. Very similar to this saxhorn basse that you can still purchase from Couesnon http://instruments-musique.pgm-coues...tee-fr-28.html

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Hidden Valley, AZ
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    The 3rd slide is pretty short to be 2 steps, like most euro Saxhorns of that era. YMMV

    DDG

  6. Awesome, thank you all!!!

    Now I couldn't find Besson France serial numbers online (Besson UK not a problem!), do you know how I could find out how old it might be?

    Thx,

    --
    Chris

  7. The following comes from a trumpet interest group that is trying to date F. Besson Meha trumpets. Lots of "discussion" about F. Besson serial numbers. The fact that the valve block on the horn pictured above does not have cork stops on the stem but uses felt under the finger buttons, plus the serial number lead me to believe it is post WWII:

    spach wrote:
    After several attempts over the past months (whew), your question spurred me to give it another shot. I found this info at the elstub enterprises music site. It appears to be accurate for prewar bessons, mehas, and brevetes. Hope this helps. BTW, my 1934 Meha's valves have the springs on the bottom and I think this may be characteristic of prewar models. If anyone knows differently, please elighten us.

    Besson - Paris (1869-1947)
    Serial Numbers / Year of Manufacture
    001-10000 / 1869-74
    10001-14000 / 1874-76
    14001-24143 / 1876-79
    24144-26000 / 1879-82
    26001-30000 / 1882-84
    30001-36000 / 1884-87
    36001-40000 / 1887-89
    40001-50000 / 1889-94
    50001-68000 / 1894-1901
    68001-69000 / 1901-05
    69001-70000 / 1905-06
    70001-77500 / 1906-11
    77501-82000 / 1911-20
    82001-87000 / 1920-34
    87001-92000 / 1934-47

    Cheers


    This list is quite wrong. I have spent the better half of the past 6 years researching Besson information. In my time researching I have uncovered quite a bit of information including letters from the factory, spoken with people who purchased horns in France during WWII, discovered unknown connections between Besson and other manufactures.

    I am still working on my serial number list for the beginning of the 20th century as my primary focus has been from 1840-1857. Here are some things I can share pertaining to French manufacturing.

    1. Serial # 95047 is the latest pre-war horn I have uncovered and is a Rapuano model. We know that all Rapuano models were made prior to WWII

    2. I have spoken with 2 individuals who purchased horns in France in 1945 that were both 94XXX serial numbers.

    3. There was a major change in construction of the valve block in the mid 95XXX range where the bottom part of the casing went from a sleeve over sleeve (tube) construction to a solid machined bar stock casing (like casings made today). It is my opinion that this is the dividing mark from pre to post-war manufacturing as it would make sense to purchase new machinery and change production techniques that were done for almost 100 years right after a war and shutdown in production.

    4. I have 2 letters from the Besson company that states serial #86249 was made in April 1924 and serial #87522/ 87663 made in June 1925. This would mean an average of around 1200 (101 /month) horns a year were made in the mid 20's. If production kept the same rate it would mean that a 94XXX serial would be around 1932. Lets then say that production dropped in 1927 to 500 horns a year would put 94XXX in 1937/1938 which is still before the German occupation of Paris.

    5. There are also discrepancies in the serial number stamp font between serial 95045 and 95047. #95045 was purchased used in NYC in 1957 and has what I call the "Couesnon font" stamp and 95047 has the traditional font used in Besson production for over 80 years. I can only assume that some parts were left over and that serial numbers were reused after the war.

    6. I have also found that all horns with the above mentioned solid stock constructed valve block also have a factory 3rd slide water key which is identical to what Couesnon was putting on its instruments after the war. After all, the Couesnon factory at the time was located at 94 Rue D'Angouleme which was between Besson's addresses of 92 Rue D'Angouleme circa 1869-1889 and 96/98 Rue D'Angouleme circa 1889-1945 when Rue D'Angouleme was renamed Rue Jean-Pierre-Timbaud.
    _________________
    Josh Landress
    J. Landress Brass, LLC.
    153 West 36th Street 3rd Floor, NY, NY 10018
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    Last edited by daruby; 09-21-2018 at 10:21 AM.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

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