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Thread: Shallow Mouthpieces

  1. Shallow Mouthpieces

    After reading some threads about mouthpiece choices I started thinking. Many of the older players on the forum went through college playing small horns with shallow (by today's standards anyway) mouthpieces. I was recently listening to some old recordings, such as Dave Werden's Endearing Young Charms. If I am not mistaken, in that recording he is using a Besson New Standard with a medium shank receiver, and a 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. While the sound is a little bright, the musicality, core, control, and tone quality were still absolutely top notch to say the least, as was the technique. So, what changed? Why did euphonium players go to such large horns, and gargantuan mouthpieces? I myself of course do the same thing, playing an SM4M on my new standard. I want a nice dark sound, but if I could potentially sound as good as Mr. Werden does on the small mouthpiece, why should I bother using a giant mouthpiece and wear myself out? I love the sound of the modern euphonium, don't get me wrong, but I'm just wondering why players as a whole started using these big and deep mouthpieces? Do you think it's a mistake for some? If I'm not professional, should I use a smaller piece until I have near perfect breath control? So many questions haha.

  2. #2
    You raise some good points. Underlying this discussion is the constant quest for larger and larger horns/mouthpieces/sounds. The trend MAY be calming or even reversing a bit in bands and orchestras, but it is too early to be sure.

    I have a concept of what a euphonium should sound like. For many years I resisted the urge to switch away from Besson and its intonation issues. The competition had improved the 6th-partial sharpness to some extent (Willson and Hirsbrunner were the first of the pack), but the Besson had the character of sound I wanted.

    When I was playing the New Standard, I wanted to get more projection without stressing the tone. That's why the Sovereign 967 won me over. The sound was bigger and darker, but still retained the "euphonium tone" that I sought. It had the drawback of being a bit harder to control in smaller settings, such as our euph-tuba quarter or when playing with a piano.

    In more recent times I tried two instruments with much larger sounds than my Besson/Sterling/Adams horns: the Cerveny Emperor and Miraphone 5050 (and previously the Miraphone 1258). They were both great from a large-sound standpoint; either really rose to the challenge when trying to project a non-stressed tone on the Holst 2nd Suite, for example. But neither satisfied me for lighter pieces, such as some of the Mendez solos I like to play. And neither would have been as good for the pop-song playing I've been doing.

    It's always a balance, give-and-take, pluses and minuses. If I were a full-time chamber player, I might have stuck with my Adams E1 instead of the E3. But if I were still in the Coast Guard Band, I would have jumped to the E3 as soon as it became available. (During the time I was in the band, the volume levels were pretty high!)

    In 1976 I had a talk with Brian Bowman about horns and mouthpieces. He mentioned the balance thing. He chose to play a smaller mouthpiece with a larger horn (which I suspect was when he was testing the Willson model), because his endurance was better and he still got the tone he wanted. Even today, the BB mouthpieces are somewhat narrower than most of the Wicks that many players use. Brian also seemed to favor a deeper cup along with the narrow rim to balance tone/endurance.

    So there are many ways to approach this! I 6-1/2AL is a bit bright for my tastes, but in the right horn it can work pretty well. There are other choices that are smoother sounding, like a Wick 6 or a Bach 5G. Both those are considerably easier to manage than my 4AL. Keep an open mind as you try things and don't feel like you have to fit any particular mold.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #3
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    It's interesting (as Dave's last posting illustrates) that euphonium players tend to think of finding "the horn", while conceding that some horns are better than others for some contexts and applications. This contrasts rather sharply with the typical tuba player (at least at a high amateur or professional level), who is not only willing, but anxious to possess at least a couple of horns for different uses -- typically a "large" CC or BBb contra-bass tuba and then a smaller (usually F, but sometimes Eb) bass tuba for uses in smaller groups, quintets, etc. It also contrasts with many trombone players who have at least a tenor of one sort or another (and may have both a large and small bore), a bass, and possibly an alto.

    I'm a bit puzzled why euphonium players seem so "monohornous".
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I'm a bit puzzled why euphonium players seem so "monohornous".
    Well, I have one idea on the matter. With euphonium, we're taking about bore size, bell size, etc., always on a horn pitched in B-flat. For me, the tonal/response differences are enough to consider when buying a horn, but I'm not sure they are enough to justify owning 2 or more horns. With tubas, you are usually changing the key of the horn. I've heard people play Bydlo on a CC, but it really sits better on an F (or even better on a euphonium!!). John Fletcher played a lot on his Eb, but said he also had a large German CC (I think it was a CC, not a BBb) for Mahler/etc.

    I don't recall seeing tuba players switch horns within the same key (i.e. from a large CC to a small CC). Do they typically do that?
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  5. #5
    A number of years ago, I read an article by the trombone player Tom Gibson. He had judged am trombone audition for a pro orchestra and had discussed equipment with the auditionees. The person that won used a medium bore bone and a medium sized mouthpiece. Tom commented that the folks that used the larger equipment, while technically excellent, tended to sound the same and weren't able to varying their styles as well. There also was another article by a horn player (can't remember his name) from a major orchestra, in which he commented that he prefers his sound with a larger mouthpiece, but it is too hard to use for first horn parts, so he uses a medium sized piece. It seems to me that horn/mouthpiece size is a bit like horsepower — people think the more, the better.

    I have seen numerous posts on this forum talking about what mouthpiece to use to get a big sound. While a larger mouthpiece can make the sound bigger, I question whether that is really the ultimate goal. Having a mouthpiece that sounds big and rich for an octave or so, and then sounds airy in the upper range or require tremendous endurance does not strike me as a good balance. I think Alan Baer said it best, "I use the smallest mouthpiece that I can that gives me the sound I want". Of course, this means you need to have a well-developed sense of how you want to sound.

  6. #6
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    Interesting topic. It reminds me of the time in my life when I had the pleasure of playing next to Arthur Lehman in the then "National Concert Band of America". Made up mostly of retired service band members in the Washington, D. C. area. He had a student who somehow managed to get in the band, not sure the circumstances. This bloke had a mouthpiece that was big enough to take a bath in. It looked as large or larger than a bass trombone mouthpiece. And he always said that the bigger the mouthpiece was, the better. I never could quite understand that. I think Arthur's mouthpiece was very large, also.

    The mouthpiece size (and shape, depth, etc.) that is right for me (or that I like) is based on a combination of factors, some of which are: 1) my own physical makeup (face, lips, etc.), 2) the sound that it (and I) produce up and down the range of the horn (my own opinion and maybe others of how it sounds - looking for mellow, not trebly, not thin but full, warm, beautiful), 3) my endurance using this mouthpiece (can I play for extended periods then be able to play a tough, demanding piece well? - of course requires me to be in good shape and practice regularly), 4) want good projection of sound to the back of concert venues, and 5) want to be able to play as loud as necessary or as loud as I want without the sound breaking up (within reason).

    So, does that equate to a big mouthpiece? I use the Demondrae mouthpiece that I got when I owned a Miraphone M5050. It does the job for me. I suppose this mouthpiece is larger than the average euphonium mouthpiece size. But I don't use it because of its size, I use it because of what it does in satisfying my requirements of what mouthpiece is right for me.

    Now, as to Gary's and Dave's comments on only one euphonium, I must confess that I own three (my Adams, a Wessex Dolce, and a 1956 B&H Imperial). But, I don't own three because I have three different sounds I want. The Wessex was a fill in horn for the time after I sold my Miraphone and was awaiting the Adams (6 months or so). I did use the Demondrae mouthpiece with it (and still do). So, not looking for something different in sound, just needed a spare horn. Decided to keep it and use it when I worry my Adams could get banged into when playing in close quarters. The 1956 Boosey & Hawkes Imperial is just "a horn I had to have". This is the horn that Harold Brasch first used when he made the switch to British style euphoniums from the American made horns. I use this horn when I go play where bullets and cannons might be going off (political rallies come to mind) around me because this horn is built like a tank. I think if I struck it with a hammer, the hammer would break. The Adams fulfills all of my needs for a horn having the right sound (along with the Demondrae piece) I like in virtually any musical circumstance "I" may be involved in.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I don't recall seeing tuba players switch horns within the same key (i.e. from a large CC to a small CC). Do they typically do that?
    Good point. On the other hand, trombone players often have at least a couple of horns pitched in Bb and used for difference purposes (band, orchestra, big band or jazz).

    And yes, some tuba players will switch horns within the same key, though it's not all that common. It may be frequent (or may have been more frequent historically) in Europe, for example, to switch between a large (and large bore) F tuba and a smaller small bore F tuba. But that's mostly speculation on my part.

    But your answer also points to another relevant difference, I think: except in circumstances such as British Brass Band where tuba parts are written transposed, tuba parts are just written for "tuba" or "bass". There can be a lot of variation there (across different composers, different genres, different arrangements) in orchestral, band, and smaller group music. I think that perhaps there isn't (aside from solo literature) such a wide range among euphonium parts -- so it's more reasonable to expect to cover it with a single instrument. Since you don't find a lot of instances of jazz euphonium or big band euphonium, and since when euphonium is used in small groups (e.g., to cover what would otherwise be the French horn part in a quintet), there isn't the sort of encouragement that trombonists have to get a different and "right" sound in those circumstances.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. Not intending to trivialize this excellent discussion at all, but for me, asking which mouthpiece is correct is a lot like asking which running shoe is correct. You definitely want something that is of high quality from a good craftsman, but beyond that it gets very personal. To continue the shoe example, What’s your foot size/width? What is your stride like? What type of running do you do, long distance, trail running, sprinting, etc?

    There is definitely something to be said for the move to larger equipment overall. I used to chase the big sound, then I finally realized that I was working way too hard, and in addition my playing began to sound generic and lacked nuance. I did need a wider diameter, but not a deeper cup. Luckily there are so many custom options now that you no longer have to choose between the two.

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Location
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    I always compare it with a racing car. You can have an absurd amount of horsepower under the bonnet, but if the tires can't put that power on the road, that power is completely useless and the car will have a lot of wheelspin and not a lot of traction.
    Same with mouthpieces, you can have a very wide or deep mouthpiece, but if it doesn't fit your facial muscles, or your lungs can't fill it up, it's no use.
    Euphoniums
    2008 Willson 2960TA Celebration
    1979 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Round Stamp)
    Mouthpiece: Denis Wick SM4
    Baritone
    1975 Besson New Standard
    Mouthpiece: Courtois 10

  10. #10
    When tuba players switch within keys it is usually because of a change in ensemble type or playing needs. (i.e. Going from orchestra to quintet, etc.). When I was in the Army Band I had a large BBb (or for awhile a CC) and I used an Eb as well for quintet solo work. It seems, as Dave mentioned above, that mouthpieces and bore sizes have continued to increase. I'm curious where it will go. I think things have gotten a little "too big". Bass trombones are absolute cannons now......lol. That type of sound doesn't work for me in every setting. I prefer the bass trombone sounds of the 60s-70s for jazz rather than the large bore bass bone sounds now. Big Band Jazz has declined somewhat also....Mouthpieces are funny things. What works for me would be a mistake for someone else and vice versa. If you are able to produce a sound that works then you are probably on the right track. A good teacher can help you arrive at the best decision. Best wishes in your search!
    John 3:16


    Conn Victor 5H Trombone
    Yamaha 354 Trombone
    Conn 15I Euphonium

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