Selling on the Forum - Policy Discussion

[davewerden]

I'd like to bring a discussion from an individual for-sale thread into the general realm so more people can give their opinions. I'll move the relevant posts here.

It started with Randy's thoughts:

If the horn sells to someone who first came across it here, I will send a little commission to Dave, in support of this site.

Several times now I've posted links here to horns that I have put up for sale elsewhere on the internet. If doing so is out-of-bounds for this site or at all questionable, if a responsible party will inform me to that effect, I'll certainly desist. I paid Dave some commission for a horn I sold through the site several years ago and am more than happy to do so. It's one way I can support this site, which I have come to appreciate very much. But if this For Sale forum is supposed to be strictly for personal horns, I don't want to violate that policy. If have not found such a policy expressed, but perhaps I have not looked in the right place or perhaps it is one of life's little unwritten rules.

...and my first reply:

Randy has been reading my mind! I'm struggling with this whole question. One of the only ways I make money to help pay for maintaining and hosting the forum is via affiliate programs. eBay is one such program. No matter who lists an item on eBay, if it sells from that link I'll receive a small commission. Sites like reverb.com are not part of the program. And obviously sales from one member to another are not covered by the affiliate mechanism.

Frankly, I'm not sure what my policy is going to be. Certainly I would appreciate any member adopting Randy's policy: if the site helps you sell something, please consider some kind of payment (whatever you think is fair). I've worked hard to build this site up over nearly 20 years, and it has become a great resource for euphonium players. However, in the past year particularly, more and more sales listed are not via eBay; during the same time my eBay commissions have dropped to about 1/5 of what they were in the preceding year. And I've noticed that "drive-by" listings have increased somewhat.

I may start softly, perhaps with a new notice over the For Sale category reminding folks that they can easily contribute in a couple ways if the site helps them sell something (PayPal or Amazon wish list).

Right now my day job is extremely intense and I don't have much time to pursue this, but I'll work on it when I can. And note that I DO still have a day job, which lets me afford this site's costs. I'll be retiring from that job sometime next year and will have to re-evaluate my expenses, so I need to figure out this whole issue for the long term.

[iiipopes]

Dave, have you corresponded with the folks at TubeNet as to how they handle this situation? They have dealt with the same issues, and might be able to give insight.

[davewerden]

Dave, have you corresponded with the folks at TubeNet as to how they handle this situation? They have dealt with the same issues, and might be able to give insight.

I hadn't thought of that, but I'll check with them to get more food for thought. Thanks!

[RandyL]

Thanks for the follow-up post, Dave. I had no idea that the eBay sales had dropped off like that--or perhaps they're reducing their commission rate? Maybe some combination. I certainly would not resent low key reminders that internet bandwidth isn't free and that ad revenues tend to be pretty small. I don't know whether you might even be able to run some ads of your own soliciting small contributions. Doesn't Wikipedia run an annual fund-raising drive for a few days? Maybe there's a time of year (start of school?) when you can suggest that forum members contemplate the value of the site to them and consider making a small donation to keep it going for another year. And of course the For Sale forum is a point at which money is changing hands, so a banner over that forum like you describe seems entirely appropriate. I like to hope that there are relatively unobtrusive ways to stimulate some contributions. My impression is that low brass players are a pretty reasonable lot and are willing to support what they're enthusiastic about.

One last comment: it seems like a worthy topic to raise at some more visible location on the forum than an individual ad for an inexpensive horn. :-) If forum members "problem-solve" together, then nobody will be resentful (well, nobody will have good reason to be resentful) at whatever steps are taken, by consensus, to keep the funding at adequate levels.

Randy

[ghmerrill]

I may be a little confused here, but ...

I don't know that I've ever sold anything on this forum, but I know I was unaware of any "contribution policy". In general, if someone doesn't tell me I need to pay for something, then I don't. This leaves aside the issue of contributing to charity -- and I will leave it aside because I don't think it's analogous to Dave's forum.

I sense from Dave's phraseology above that he's thinking in terms of a policy of "reminding folks" that they can "contribute". This does not seem to me to be a very effective approach (though I'm not sure what all the issues may be). Why not simply impose a required charge? This would solve several problems (e.g., making people know that they're "supposed" to "contribute", setting a definite fee that people will be aware of, and making the collection of fees dependable). I have no objection to that at all.

That being said, I'm skeptical about how successful a "pay to post a for-sale ad" approach is. So far as I know, Tubenet has never, and still does not, charge for posting in their for-sale topic. Tubenet appears to generate revenue from commercial "sponsorships" and for displaying commercial ads. Correct me if I'm wrong. The old TTF trombone forum, so far as I remember, did not charge for such for-sale postings. The new Trombone Chat started out by charging for for-sale postings, but pretty quickly eliminated that policy so that there are no charges.

So, it appears that imposing a required fee doesn't work (probably for a few different reasons), and "suggesting" a "contribution" also doesn't work (for different reasons).

So part of what I'm saying is that I'm quite skeptical about the practical utility of attaching a fee to for-sale postings -- whether that fee is required or suggested. For reliable support, I think one needs to look in the commercial direction. Here is Tubenet's page on New Sponsor Opportunities. Personally, I feel that their charges (for genuine commercial sponsors) are too low. They also seem to have very few of these (I count only 7, but it's also obvious that not all are listed). But I also see other commercial advertisements on their pages, such as from Sam Ash, Jeep/Wrangler, Dodge, Crashplan, Ashley Madison (!!), etc. I would also guess that advertising on Dave's forum would be AT LEAST as attractive to instrument vendors and equipment sellers (WW&BW, Hickey's, Dillon's, Baltimore Brass, Tuba Exchange, Sam Ash, and even perhaps the likes of Yamaha, Jupiter, maybe music schools, etc.) as advertising on Tubenet.

In full disclosure, I've fought this battle previously -- and lost. For years I tried to get the community band I was playing in to go out to companies in the area for paid advertising sponsorship rather than begging around to town, county, and state agencies for handouts. They wouldn't do it (in part because they either didn't know how or felt "uncomfortable" with that approach). However, the better healed community bands in the area are better healed in large part from corporate "contributions" that translate directly into mentions of the company and its products -- if not outright ads -- on web pages and programs. Anyhow, I gave up on that one. But I remain a firm believer that if you have value (and this forum does -- as an advertising and education and social medium), then that value can be leveraged in a way that doesn't depend on the largess of others, but on a more dependable commercial approach.

[davewerden]

I sense from Dave's phraseology above that he's thinking in terms of a policy of "reminding folks" that they can "contribute". This does not seem to me to be a very effective approach (though I'm not sure what all the issues may be)... Why not simply impose a required charge?

That was one thought. First, my goal for the forum is to make it a useful community and to facilitate communication. On the one hand I don't want to complicate selling stuff. On the other hand, I would like the forum to pay for itself, it leveraging the sales channel seems like a good fit. I'd hate to impose a charge for listing, although that is surely the most simple way. Based on watching eBay, a LOT of items don't sell easily. So I leaned more toward trying to get a commission from the realized sale.

So far as I know, Tubenet has never, and still does not, charge for posting in their for-sale topic. Tubenet appears to generate revenue from commercial "sponsorships" and for displaying commercial ads. Correct me if I'm wrong. The old TTF trombone forum, so far as I remember, did not charge for such for-sale postings. The new Trombone Chat started out by charging for for-sale postings, but pretty quickly eliminated that policy so that there are no charges.

Understood. On the other hand a few forums have gone under, but I don't know if part of that was lack of reliable funding.

So part of what I'm saying is that I'm quite skeptical about the practical utility of attaching a fee to for-sale postings -- whether that fee is required or suggested. For reliable support, I think one needs to look in the commercial direction. Here is Tubenet's page on New Sponsor Opportunities. Personally, I feel that their charges (for genuine commercial sponsors) are too low. They also seem to have very few of these (I count only 7, but it's also obvious that not all are listed). But I also see other commercial advertisements on their pages, such as from Sam Ash, Jeep/Wrangler, Dodge, Crashplan, Ashley Madison (!!), etc. I would also guess that advertising on Dave's forum would be AT LEAST as attractive to instrument vendors and equipment sellers (WW&BW, Hickey's, Dillon's, Baltimore Brass, Tuba Exchange, Sam Ash, and even perhaps the likes of Yamaha, Jupiter, maybe music schools, etc.) as advertising on Tubenet.

Also a good thought. FWIW, I have approached some of the manufacturers and gotten no response. Manufacturers who were already well-represented here were an easier sale (i.e. Adams and Wessex). Dealers are an option and I've been working to approach some when I have the time, but it IS time consuming to do so. It's also time consuming to send reminders at renewal - I don't have much of a system in place to help me automate that.

One of my "rules" so far has been to only allow banner ads from companies I believe are of genuine interest to the membership (in the musical realm). I drive a Dodge myself, but I wouldn't enjoy seeing car banners on the site. For the same reason I'm not just turning the ad program over to a company like Google who would serve what they think fits.

So admittedly I'm imposing my own barriers. I'll keep working on some of these ideas.

As far as a cut of sales, I'm still thinking about relying on people's own conscience for payment. Not everyone will contribute, and I can accept that.

But I think I should at least suggest it AND make it easier to accomplish for the seller. It's kind of a well-kept secret so far!

[RandyL]

My thoughts on the matter were not that there is or should be any clear requirement or expectation. I was aware that Dave gets a commission from eBay sales clicked through from the site, and I'd love to support the site in that way. The reason I don't want to sell horns on eBay, though, is eBay's 13% in commission and fees. I don't have a strong selling history there that seems to be one key to attracting bidders. And I'm not a wealthy man who can put horns up for sale just for fun, without caring whether I make my little profit or whether I lose money. If I set a Buy it Now price too high, I won't sell. If I set it where it will sell, after commissions I don't get enough to make the endeavor worth my while.

So that's the paradigm in which I've thought of paying Dave a commission on a horn that I've chosen NOT to sell on eBay. An internet site that brings buyer and seller together is not a free public service; somebody has to pay for it. So that's where the banner ads here come in, right? Well, yes, that's at least part of the answer. And if I were selling a personal horn, I think I would view the ad revenues generated by my clicks all over the site as a forum member as covering the cost of my post on the For Sale forum--not to mention the fact that the for-sale post will generate additional views that generate additional ad revenue. So my posting anything that anyone reads is supporting the site by increasing ad revenues. The donation I made earlier, which I mentioned in my first post, actually was for a personal horn, but I didn't do it out of a sense of obligation. I was just thankful for a place to sell the horn without having to pay almost $600 in commission & fees, and I expressed that thanks tangibly. I wouldn't think that others in the same situation necessarily need to feel any such inclination.

But the situation has a different feel to it, for me, when I'm using the site in the more commercial way that I've occasionally done, when I've found a horn for a bargain price and bought it for resale, motivated in part by profit (I've also had altruistic motivations that are not germane to this discussion, but my altruistic sales are local and don't involve this site). In this scenario I'm using the site for commercial purposes, and I feel a greater obligation to recognize the commercial value that the forum provides. Would I try to bind others to the same policy? Not at all, though of course the owner of the site is at liberty to set whatever policies he thinks best.

So here is my reason for mentioning the commission idea in the first place. My name appears here from time to time with a horn for sale. I don't identify myself as fully as some forum members do, just because I've chosen to keep the posting of personally identifying information on the internet to a minimum, trying to minimize personal security risk. I can well imagine that some who read my ads, including the site's administrators, may think, "Hmm. Wonder who this guy is and what he's up to? He can't have that many personal horns to sell. Is he dealing in stolen property? Is this somebody I should view as welcome here?" So when I post, I do my best to offset aspects of my presence on the site that might raise suspicion with other aspects that I hope will allay it and will give some confidence that I'm an upstanding person who operates legitimately. Recognizing the commercial value of the site with an occasional donation is just something that I personally want to do in an effort to keep myself welcome here. By the way, when I private message people who give evidence of trustworthiness, including Dave (whom I had the pleasure to meet at ITEC 2016 in Knoxville), I'm much more open about my identity than in what I post publicly.

So this is some of the background against which I raised the question in a For-Sale post about whether I was using the Forum appropriately, and offering to desist if not. And recognizing the value of the site monetarily is an aspect of what I personally consider appropriate. I also hoped that my mentioning paying a commission (perhaps a poor word choice, seeming to imply a set rate or a definite expectation) would plant an idea in some other people's minds as a good thing to do voluntarily. I was not aware that there might actually be a cash-flow issue with the site's operation that might make such a commission a significant factor in the site's ability to pay for itself.

In some respects, this is probably "too much information." But since I was the one who brought up this topic that might turn out controversial to some extent, I wanted to clarify my stance on the matter and my intent in bringing it up. So I decided to be transparent on this point, hoping that the clarity will help frame some useful discussion. I hope the net effect is helpful rather than harmful, and that a good consensus about the best ways to keep the site adequately funded will emerge.

Bottom line for me is this: paying a bit when selling a horn on the forum is something I do, for personal reasons of my own. Though I think the idea is worth others' at least considering, I don't intend any imposition on others at all.

Randy

[ghmerrill]

Just some additional thoughts here -- without "trying to tell other people what to do" (about which my wife is constantly warning me) ...

FWIW, I have approached some of the manufacturers and gotten no response.

Unless you approached them with a specific (detailed written) proposal, including statistics on your site (amount of traffic per day, demographics of members, exactly what you would provide to them and at what price), then my guess would be that any significantly sized company would simply ignore the query as something they just couldn't respond to. In addition, you'd need to get to the right person in their advertising organization. You may not want to go all-in like this, but as you retire (and congratulations on that!), you may have the time to do it, and it could make the site fully self-sustaining, and quite possibly profitable. You may not want to think of your site as a business, but it is one. And it's quite a good one in its current state. It's well done, well laid out, has great (and in fact unique) content, has a wonderful demographic in terms of sales, is highly respected, and is very well managed and maintained.

One of my "rules" so far has been to only allow banner ads from companies I believe are of genuine interest to the membership (in the musical realm). I drive a Dodge myself, but I wouldn't enjoy seeing car banners on the site.

I would not have a Dodge myself, but my son had one once, and it seems that for some reason they're very attractive to old military types -- perhaps because they set up large dealerships adjacent to bases and offer attractive financing. I would estimate that approximately 75% of the cars and trucks in Fayetteville, NC are Dodges -- most driven in "carefree" ways by young members of military organizations. But that aside ...

I'd have no objection to Dodge ads. As with almost all ads on all web sites (like Tubenet), I ignore them to the point of almost not seeing them. Don't tell this to potential advertisers.

For the same reason I'm not just turning the ad program over to a company like Google who would serve what they think fits.

Now that's wise. Stick with it.

[58mark]

FYI. Little behind the curtain stuff here.

Tubenet has two levels of sponsorship. One is a $25 a month full sponsorship, and that includes a banner that rotates at the top of the forum.

The second is $100 a YEAR, and it's exactly the same, but without a banner. In the age of ad blockers, I think that's a bargain.

[Rodney K.]

I also hoped that my mentioning paying a commission (perhaps a poor word choice, seeming to imply a set rate or a definite expectation) would plant an idea in some other people's minds as a good thing to do voluntarily.
Randy

Maybe the word you want is "gratuity"?

[RandyL]

That's it; gratuity would be an excellent choice. Thanks. :-)

Randy

[Euph Loosh]

Dave,
I was thinking of your quote:
"As far as a cut of sales, I'm still thinking about relying on people's own conscience for payment. Not everyone will contribute, and I can accept that."

As an enthusiastic amateur, I cannot tell you how valuable this site has been for me. Your advice (and those of your regulars!) has helped me on numerous occasions. That said, as I live outside of the US and therefore wouldn't likely sell my euph on this website, I wonder if I could voluntarily contribute in another way? Would you consider setting up a voluntary contribution "button" through PayPal?

[davewerden]

Dave,
I was thinking of your quote:
"As far as a cut of sales, I'm still thinking about relying on people's own conscience for payment. Not everyone will contribute, and I can accept that."

As an enthusiastic amateur, I cannot tell you how valuable this site has been for me. Your advice (and those of your regulars!) has helped me on numerous occasions. That said, as I live outside of the US and therefore wouldn't likely sell my euph on this website, I wonder if I could voluntarily contribute in another way? Would you consider setting up a voluntary contribution "button" through PayPal?

Thanks for asking! I do have such a provision, but it is not obvious on the forum. You'll find a PayPal donation link at the top of the following page:

http://www.dwerden.com/gifts.cfm

(Making such things more obvious and convenient is a goal after the discussion here.)

[RandyL]

Very good; I see it now, under the "Other" menu on the home page.

Maybe promoting that link to the primary menu on the home page would be a good idea. On the "gifts" page, you could place some text indicating the spirit behind the solicitation of gifts, so it doesn't seem that you are just money-grubbing. Something featuring the word "support" but not sounding like "tech support" might be better than "gifts" as indicating the nature of what you're looking for. "Support this site" or "Support the Forum" or something like that might be good. Better minds than mine can probably come up with the mot juste.

In that context, you could perhaps list some reasons for supporting the site. One entry on the list could be something like this: Did the Forum provide you a commission-free sale of your instrument or gear? Consider recognizing that value with a small gratuity.

Which raises the question of how long a list we might be able to compile. Here's another potential item that comes to mind: "Did one of our resident experts offer advice or instruction that helped you place well at an audition or in a contest? Such instruction usually comes via expensive lessons, but on this site you can often get it free. Those who dispense such advice don't do so with their hand out for a gift; they are here because they value the forum and the contribution it makes--and allows them to make--to the guild. You can be sure that they would feel well thanked if you made a donation to the site that they support by their participation and expertise. If you do so, let them know!"

Randy

[ghmerrill]

FYI. Little behind the curtain stuff here.

Tubenet has two levels of sponsorship. One is a $25 a month full sponsorship, and that includes a banner that rotates at the top of the forum.

The second is $100 a YEAR, and it's exactly the same, but without a banner. In the age of ad blockers, I think that's a bargain.

I don't think of it as a bargain. I think of it as giving away the store. Indulge me while I rant on about this a bit ...

The fees being charged for what counts as premium advertising on these sites with a large and dedicated traffic and targeted demographics are laughable. It's chump change. Lunch money. Etc. As a comparison, consider the advertising costs for a professional academic association I'm considering advertising on once I get this book I'm working on finished:

For a web site ad, 316x210 pixels: $300 PER MONTH. The web site in question claims 20,000 page views/month (600-700/day).

A one-time full-page add in a SINGLE meeting program: $600

A one-time email sent to registrants of a SINGLE meeting: $300

An ad on a meeting web page (TEMPORARY): $350

And THIS is nothing, compared to what real advertising costs. THIS is for advertising on the American Philosophical Association site -- so mostly ads from publishers, universities, and philosophy departments. I don't know what Dave's stats are on this forum (visits per day or per month), but even if it's not comparable to the example, it can't be inconsequential. Note that what's important isn't posts/day, but visits (not including bots, of course).

Want to know the ITEA rates?
Here for web site advertising costs: http://www.iteaonline.org/ads/ad_inf...%20Website.pdf
Here for meeting advertising costs: http://www.iteaonline.org/ads/ad_inf...0(Prepaid).pdf

HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE ITEA READ THIS FORUM ON A REGULAR BASIS? So how much difference do you think there is between the advertising demographic of this forum and the ITEA? How could that translate into revenue? Tubenet is not the "market leader" to emulate here.

Just some comparisons as food for thought.