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Thread: Selling on the Forum - Policy Discussion

  1. #11
    That's it; gratuity would be an excellent choice. Thanks. :-)

    Randy

  2. #12
    Dave,
    I was thinking of your quote:
    "As far as a cut of sales, I'm still thinking about relying on people's own conscience for payment. Not everyone will contribute, and I can accept that."

    As an enthusiastic amateur, I cannot tell you how valuable this site has been for me. Your advice (and those of your regulars!) has helped me on numerous occasions. That said, as I live outside of the US and therefore wouldn't likely sell my euph on this website, I wonder if I could voluntarily contribute in another way? Would you consider setting up a voluntary contribution "button" through PayPal?
    Euph Loosh
    Imperial by Boosey & Hawkes 4-valve Euphonium (mid-1950's)
    MPs: Kosikup 1 1/2, Bowman BB2 Euro shank, Denis Wick 4AM; Marcus Bonna case

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Euph Loosh View Post
    Dave,
    I was thinking of your quote:
    "As far as a cut of sales, I'm still thinking about relying on people's own conscience for payment. Not everyone will contribute, and I can accept that."

    As an enthusiastic amateur, I cannot tell you how valuable this site has been for me. Your advice (and those of your regulars!) has helped me on numerous occasions. That said, as I live outside of the US and therefore wouldn't likely sell my euph on this website, I wonder if I could voluntarily contribute in another way? Would you consider setting up a voluntary contribution "button" through PayPal?
    Thanks for asking! I do have such a provision, but it is not obvious on the forum. You'll find a PayPal donation link at the top of the following page:

    http://www.dwerden.com/gifts.cfm

    (Making such things more obvious and convenient is a goal after the discussion here.)
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #14
    Very good; I see it now, under the "Other" menu on the home page.

    Maybe promoting that link to the primary menu on the home page would be a good idea. On the "gifts" page, you could place some text indicating the spirit behind the solicitation of gifts, so it doesn't seem that you are just money-grubbing. Something featuring the word "support" but not sounding like "tech support" might be better than "gifts" as indicating the nature of what you're looking for. "Support this site" or "Support the Forum" or something like that might be good. Better minds than mine can probably come up with the mot juste.

    In that context, you could perhaps list some reasons for supporting the site. One entry on the list could be something like this: Did the Forum provide you a commission-free sale of your instrument or gear? Consider recognizing that value with a small gratuity.

    Which raises the question of how long a list we might be able to compile. Here's another potential item that comes to mind: "Did one of our resident experts offer advice or instruction that helped you place well at an audition or in a contest? Such instruction usually comes via expensive lessons, but on this site you can often get it free. Those who dispense such advice don't do so with their hand out for a gift; they are here because they value the forum and the contribution it makes--and allows them to make--to the guild. You can be sure that they would feel well thanked if you made a donation to the site that they support by their participation and expertise. If you do so, let them know!"

    Randy

  5. #15
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58mark View Post
    FYI. Little behind the curtain stuff here.

    Tubenet has two levels of sponsorship. One is a $25 a month full sponsorship, and that includes a banner that rotates at the top of the forum.

    The second is $100 a YEAR, and it's exactly the same, but without a banner. In the age of ad blockers, I think that's a bargain.
    I don't think of it as a bargain. I think of it as giving away the store. Indulge me while I rant on about this a bit ...

    The fees being charged for what counts as premium advertising on these sites with a large and dedicated traffic and targeted demographics are laughable. It's chump change. Lunch money. Etc. As a comparison, consider the advertising costs for a professional academic association I'm considering advertising on once I get this book I'm working on finished:

    For a web site ad, 316x210 pixels: $300 PER MONTH. The web site in question claims 20,000 page views/month (600-700/day).

    A one-time full-page add in a SINGLE meeting program: $600

    A one-time email sent to registrants of a SINGLE meeting: $300

    An ad on a meeting web page (TEMPORARY): $350

    And THIS is nothing, compared to what real advertising costs. THIS is for advertising on the American Philosophical Association site -- so mostly ads from publishers, universities, and philosophy departments. I don't know what Dave's stats are on this forum (visits per day or per month), but even if it's not comparable to the example, it can't be inconsequential. Note that what's important isn't posts/day, but visits (not including bots, of course).

    Want to know the ITEA rates?
    Here for web site advertising costs: http://www.iteaonline.org/ads/ad_inf...%20Website.pdf
    Here for meeting advertising costs: http://www.iteaonline.org/ads/ad_inf...0(Prepaid).pdf

    HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE ITEA READ THIS FORUM ON A REGULAR BASIS? So how much difference do you think there is between the advertising demographic of this forum and the ITEA? How could that translate into revenue? Tubenet is not the "market leader" to emulate here.

    Just some comparisons as food for thought.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #16
    Thanks for that info, Gary. I should consider the rates vs. value vs. traffic vs. depth of pockets. The ITEA ads I see right now are from major manufacturers, who have pretty large pockets, as compared to Austin Brass or even Wessex for example. The ITEA ads are the same 3 on every page I see, so either they don't rotate as frequently as I would expect or they don't have enough ads to merit rotation. Interesting.

    ITEA says they get around 300,000 visits/month, so they have nearly 3x the traffic the forum does (not counting the main site at dwerden.com, since I'm not running banners there). On the other hand, I think we probably more frequent fliers on this forum than ITEA does on their site, mostly because of the very nature of a forum (and the quality of the members' contributions!).

    I would like to have more manufacturers in the banner area, so I need to tune up my approach to them. We have lots of members with Bessons, Yamahas, Willsons, etc. and it would just seem "right" for their banners to be present. For them, I think the main motive would be "branding" in general. For Austin, Wessex, Baltimore Brass, etc. I think they would probably see more of a direct benefit (clicks to their sites and perhaps purchases).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. #17
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    Yeah, this is where this type of site marketing gets "interesting". You've really got basically two pools of possible advertisers: the first is small to medium-size companies (including individual-run shops or services, instructors offering online teaching -- more of these every day, etc.); the second is larger commercial operations like instrument manufacturers, publishers, and large vendors (WW&BW/Guitar World/Mouthpiece Express, Sam Ash, etc.).

    The smaller companies may feel more "need" (or desire) to advertise, but have more reluctance to spend the money (commensurate with how much their revenue stream is) and may not have much, if any, dedicated advertising organization ("Yup, our advertising department is Martha at the desk over there in the corner. She also does accounts payable."). These guys should get a formal solicitation with a suggestion of service and fee. But nothing overwhelming.

    The larger companies already have genuine advertising budgets (and advertising/marketing departments), and they're pretty much in the game of allocating those advertising resources that they've decided to spend, and they do that on an annual schedule. For these, you need to know whom specifically to contact (VP of marketing? Director of web marketing? Whatever) and make a fully formal and at least reasonably "finished" pitch, with all the options, detailed proposal, costs, requirements, personal dossier, etc.

    Or at least that's what I suspect the situation is. Buy you have the advantage of being already well known in the "trade", having some contacts that would enable you to find out whom to get to without maybe having to fight your way through layers of confused and confusing bureaucracy, and you can approach people easily at various conferences and events. Also, while ITEA may have 3x the traffic you do, you can claim "added benefit" in various ways (e.g., your site doesn't required paid membership to access all of it's content, it may in fact draw from a larger demographic than ITEA, ...). And 100K visits/month is a very significant community in which to advertise. It would be interesting to see how far you would get without putting excessive effort into it.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
    I don't know whether savvy advertising managers try to gauge the quality of a site's clicks or whether they look strictly at the numbers. If they try to filter the numbers in order to quantify clicks actually from the target audience, then it's perhaps worth noting that there are other organizations with the acronym ITEA, and a certain percentage of clicks are likely from people looking for one of the other organizations and therefore completely oblivious to the ads once they realize they're on the wrong site. On the other hand, the fact that the URL is not simply ITEA.com or ITEA.org (it's ITEAOnline.org) would seem to significantly reduce the frequency of unintentional visits.

    Regardless of what may happen on the ITEA site, I would think that a very high percentage of clicks on this site represent the advertiser's target audience. If this concept of purity carries weight with advertising managers, it's probably something worth looking into; it could be a pretty strong card to play in the game.

    Randy

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyL View Post
    I don't know whether savvy advertising managers try to gauge the quality of a site's clicks or whether they look strictly at the numbers.
    If they try to filter the numbers in order to quantify clicks actually from the target audience, ...
    Leaving aside the concept of "savvy advertising manager" (), there are ways to do this, but it gets very complex and I'm not sure that any sites other than some of the major ones like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc. implement what's necessary to do it. This is related to all the stuff you're seeing on the news about "collection of user data" (and services like Google Analytics). If they do, I'm sure you could buy that service from them, but it wouldn't be cheap, and for a site like this or ITEA, wouldn't be worth it, I think.

    then it's perhaps worth noting that there are other organizations with the acronym ITEA, and a certain percentage of clicks are likely from people looking for one of the other organizations and therefore completely oblivious to the ads once they realize they're on the wrong site. On the other hand, the fact that the URL is not simply ITEA.com or ITEA.org (it's ITEAOnline.org) would seem to significantly reduce the frequency of unintentional visits.
    Yes, this is where what people refer to as "AI" enters the picture. The research to support it, and then the design, implementation, and testing are expensive.

    Regardless of what may happen on the ITEA site, I would think that a very high percentage of clicks on this site represent the advertiser's target audience. If this concept of purity carries weight with advertising managers, it's probably something worth looking into; it could be a pretty strong card to play in the game.
    Yes, exactly. This is where the "pitch" (and what's known specifically about this forum's membership) makes for the "added benefit". It can't (in Dave's case) be absolutely supported with usage statistics. But a reasonable argument and plausible story can be made about it based on what evidence is available.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. #20
    Rings true to me!

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