Antoine Courtois' Euphonium information

[RobBartom]

Hello,

I have just bought for my 10 yo son an Euphonium. He has studied tuba for 3 years and his tuba teacher asked for switching from Tuba Baryton to Euphonium.
So I went through the web to see opportunities.
I decided this week to buy a silver compensated 3+1 valves Euphonium from Antoine Courtois.
The model is 367A and the photos are here :
https://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments...453116263.htm/

As I don't know this instrument I decided to buy this one as it was nearly in new conditions - played for 3 months in 2008 and since then sleeping in his bag - .
I cannot find any information on the 367A Euphonium because Courtois company was sold to Buffet Crampon. They don't deliver Euphonium anymore.
Also Buffet Crampon is at the head of many trends such as B&S, Melton Meinl Weston, Hans Hoyer.

Does anyone have piece of information on the Courtois Symphony 367 ?

Best regards,

Rob from France

[joshealejo]

I understand that those 367 are updated versions of the 267 and 167II, wich were always threated as equals to the Meinl Weston 551 (economical versions, as the courtois 267 and 167II came in silver or lacquer and the Meinl Westons 551 always came with silver and gold accents as this forum user sates: https://www.musiktreff.info/instrume...-sterling.html )

"(...)@euph97 das Courtois 167II ist zu 90% ein Melton 551, nur ohne die unnötigen vergoldeten Ventildeckel."

wich transaltes to:

"(...)@ euph97 the Courtois 167II is 90% a Melton 551, just without the unnecessary gold-plated valve cover."

It seems that the 367 have a bit smaller valves (wich is good because many people complained about the 267 very long valves (I have a Courtois 168 6 valved french tuba with LONG valves and have no complains, they work great! I also purchased an used 267 for a VERY low price in good condition but It still in the UK awating to be shipped)), and the 367 have the trigger in a more conventional place, the 267 had It in the back part of the euphonium and It was operated with the middle finger of the left hand, It acted like a 5th valve, in a more french 5 valved saxhorn style.

Here is a table showing some aspects from different brands of professional euphoniums, comparing bell and bore. This shows that the Courtois 367 is a big euphonium with 310 mm bell and 15-17mm bore.

http://users.euregio.net/patricks/EuphComp.html

Anyway for that price you cannot go wrong with that euphonium in that condition.

Good luck!
Jose

[DEF1]

I own a Courtois 167 and it's a great euphonium. You've found a good one looking at the condition but the price is at the top end.
If looked after it will serve your son well for many years and there should be no need to upgrade.
Don't bother contacting Antoine Courtois for information because they do not hold any information on the Courtois euphoniums.
I'm sure your son will be very pleased with his euphonium.

[franz]

I have no information about the Courtois 367A, but I played for 20 years on a non compensated Courtois mod 165. I can say that it was a very good horn, nice and warm sound, good intonation ( only needed correction on the partial sixth Eb), shorter valve stroke than on my current Besson Prestige, still impeccable construction and silvering after 20 years of daily use. If Courtois has maintained the constructive standards of eighties, I can certainly recommend the purchase.



Sorry,I got a bit of a mess in uploading photos.

[RobBartom]

The euphonium is almost new as only 3 months of use.
I was given also a Yamaha mute and 2 extra mouthpieces from Denis Wick.
In fact I will get feedback from my purchase by the tuba teacher next September.
He recommended to have a look at this euphonium and a Melton Meinl Weiston Brand Euphonium model 551 as used instruments.

I just read on this thread that both 551 from Melton and 167 from Courtois are very similar.

I had to choose between :
used euphoniums made in Europe
new euphoniums like MTP Firebird / Jupiter 1120S / Besson 767. (prices around 3500€)

I was not very confident to buy new euphoniums as some of the parts like valves are built in Asia and assembled in Germany.
I even heard of tubas vendors that the MTP 115 in the lacquer version was very popular as cheap : 1555€ but they are some vendors which don't sell it any more due to poor quality regarding varnish issues.

So the only way to get good euphoniums in Europe is to buy Adams, Besson Sovereign, Miraphone, Willson, Jupiter XO, Yamaha brands instruments.
But they are very expensive, more than 5000€.

So I decided on the Courtois and so far I am happy with it.

[RobBartom]

My son tuba teacher experimented some plays with the Courtois 367A euphonium last week.
He said it is a very good instrument with very nice tone. He said he may play with a larger mouthpiece to play low pitched sounds.

He compared it with the Jupiter 1120S. The Courtois euph is clearly superior. Tone, projection, note accuracy, register, everything is better.
By the way the cheapest euphoniums are not efficient for low pitched sounds : they are built with minimum metal. In French we say the sound is 'cuivré' (big vibrations).
To me I heared the Jupiter 1120S it is a very good instrument for studying - far better than the MTP 115 which starts to be widely spread among students.

He also compared it to the English version of the Besson Sovereign.
He said that they are very different. The Besson sound is lighter and more solo oriented.
He reckoned that the Besson is a semi pro version against the proversion for the Courtois euph.
Averall he considered the Courtois as the best.

Next he will compare the Courtois euph with the Jupiter XO. I will write his comments here.

[RobBartom]

I have a question : is there a classification of euphoniums based on criteria like projection , accuracy, intonation ... ?
It is said that the Courtois is very similar to the Melton 551 but I don't know why.
Which company today builds euphonium in the continuity of Courtois ?

Tks

Rob

[DEF1]

My son tuba teacher experimented some plays with the Courtois 367A euphonium last week.
He said it is a very good instrument with very nice tone. He said he may play with a larger mouthpiece to play low pitched sounds.

He compared it with the Jupiter 1120S. The Courtois euph is clearly superior. Tone, projection, note accuracy, register, everything is better.
By the way the cheapest euphoniums are not efficient for low pitched sounds : they are built with minimum metal. In French we say the sound is 'cuivré' (big vibrations).
To me I heared the Jupiter 1120S it is a very good instrument for studying - far better than the MTP 115 which starts to be widely spread among students.

He also compared it to the English version of the Besson Sovereign.
He said that they are very different. The Besson sound is lighter and more solo oriented.
He reckoned that the Besson is a semi pro version against the proversion for the Courtois euph.
Averall he considered the Courtois as the best.

Next he will compare the Courtois euph with the Jupiter XO. I will write his comments here.

A Besson Sovereign is a semi pro instrument. Really? Professionals have been using them for years. They are also used in brass bands where the sound needs to carry so certainly don't have a lighter sound.

[DEF1]

I have a question : is there a classification of euphoniums based on criteria like projection , accuracy, intonation ... ?
It is said that the Courtois is very similar to the Melton 551 but I don't know why.
Which company today builds euphonium in the continuity of Courtois ?

Tks

Rob

Apparently Melton made the later Ccourtois euphs, hence the similarity.

[RobBartom]

A Besson Sovereign is a semi pro instrument. Really? Professionals have been using them for years. They are also used in brass bands where the sound needs to carry so certainly don't have a lighter sound.

He said the Besson Prestige is a professionnal version and the Besson Sovereign a semi professionnal version.
I dunno why he claims it but he might be true.

Isnt the reason in connection with the trigger set up on the Courtois ?
The Besson Sovereign we saw didn't have a trigger.

[davewerden]

He said the Besson Prestige is a professionnal version and the Besson Sovereign a semi professionnal version.

Well... Yes and No. Keep in mind that until about 20 years ago the Sovereign was the top of the line and was used by the top British players (except the ones who jumped to York, which was basically the same design). And 20 years before that the New Standard was used by all the professional players.

The change to Sovereign was significant in the case of the 967 and more subtle in the case of the 968. It reflected the trend toward bigger, darker sounds.

However, I don't think that is so much the case with the Prestige. Speaking of the basic horn, not counting the trigger and gold trim, the Sovereign is a good competitor to the Prestige. Some like its sound better. And when Buffet took over production, the bore increased to what the Prestige uses. I would consider the Sovereign a professional horn, especially if you can get one with a trigger.

FWIW... Not many consider the New Standard a modern professional horn, although some still use it with excellent results (for example, Phil Franke who recently retired from The U.S. Marine Band).

[RobBartom]

I decided to watch some Melton Meinl Weston 551 euphonium photos and my Courtois A367 matches perfectly.
Furthermore the bell diameter is announced at 310 mm wide and on my Courtois it is 300 mm. You can just guess I found 300 mm bell diameter on Meinl Weston vendors for the 551 version.
It is also mention that the 551 has a Heavy gold brass big bell. What is the point behind this ?
I understand that the metal layer is not thin so that for low pitched sounds the sound quality is great without vibrations.
I can compare to the basic MTP compensated euphonium which low pitched sounds are like tin can sounds.

Also I wander why very few people mention the MMW 551s on the Web site. Is it finally a instrument under Besson prestige, Adams E3, Yamaha 842s in term of quality ?
Or because on this US site people would tend to favor 'local' euphoniums ?

Rob

[highpitch]

I'd like to see a 'local' pro euph made in the USA today...

Dennis

[RobBartom]

In Europe instruments (or anything else) sellers mention 'Designed in Europe', meaning that the item is not producted, assembled in Europe.
I guess the factories are in Asia, but I believe you have some euphoniums designers in North America and then manufactured overseas ?

Some instruments the US can be proud of.

[highpitch]

I guess the factories are in Asia, but I believe you have some euphoniums designers in North America and then manufactured overseas ? Some instruments the US can be proud of.

Please tell who that would be...

DG