Valve cap buttons

[Sara Hood]

I have seen some pretty valve cap buttons available online, and I am thinking about buying a set for my JinBao baritone. A little jewelry for my lovely horn (smile). First I wanted to know if there was anything I needed to be aware of or consider before doing this. Are there pitfalls I don't know about and should really try to avoid? Or are they fairly interchangeable, screwing them on and off like changing jewelry?

On another, related, note - Does anybody like the look of gold trim (including valve caps) on an otherwise silver plated horn? I don't. I think that it makes the gold look orange and the horn as a whole look mismatched/misassembled. I prefer the streamlined look of a single color horn. But feel free to chime in with your own thoughts and opinions on the matter (smile).

- Sara Hood

[Himura]

If you know which horn your 1240 is based off of, then parts made for that horn will probably be a good start. I don't know how easy it is to find genuine JinBao parts, but I've heard plenty of instances where their horns can just straight-up take parts from the horns they've been copied from. I say go for it and be careful not to cross-thread the new parts!

I think that gold highlights against silver much better than the other way around when used properly. Just gold valve buttons would look shoddy, but paired with gold accents on the tuning slides (and even the water keys) can be quite sharp-looking indeed. Just enough to be subtle in breaking up the all-silver trim without getting too blingy. The same can be said for mixing matte and glossy lacquer finishes.

On the other hand, I'm rocking black and gold, so what do I know about subtlety......

[ghmerrill]

I have seen some pretty valve cap buttons available online, and I am thinking about buying a set for my JinBao baritone. A little jewelry for my lovely horn (smile). First I wanted to know if there was anything I needed to be aware of or consider before doing this. Are there pitfalls I don't know about and should really try to avoid? Or are they fairly interchangeable, screwing them on and off like changing jewelry?

The only thing you need to be concerned about is the thread size (diameter and pitch). If you don't match that, then you can't screw on the new buttons. There are several ways of determining this, and I'd be happy to recite them, but the easiest way is to ask your vendor.

On another, related, note - Does anybody like the look of gold trim (including valve caps) on an otherwise silver plated horn? I don't. I think that it makes the gold look orange and the horn as a whole look mismatched/misassembled. I prefer the streamlined look of a single color horn. But feel free to chime in with your own thoughts and opinions on the matter (smile).

I'm not sure that there are any truly "single color" horns other than "silver" ones (where I mean the color silver and not the substance silver). Brass horns typically have nickel (i.e., silver colored) ferrules, water keys, etc. Valve stems are often chromed. You get the idea. Of course most of THESE color differences are for practical or "quality" purposes.

As a matter of personal taste, I don't care for the "blingy" instruments -- but I don't think I'd put that euph of Himura's in that class. His seems along the lines of Pat Sheridan's tuba -- if you've ever seen that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyQeYctaea4) -- although I think Himura hasn't really spread his wings yet in this direction. My wife (being of Italian heritage) has a phrase for such things: "Gaudy, but not Italian". It seeks to draw a line when you've sort of fallen over a boundary of taste but don't want to go whole hog into the abyss.

Regarding the orange-looking gold, there is nothing intrinsically bad about this. My wife (again) has both her mother's and father's wedding rings. Made in Italy in the early 20th century. They are a shade that many would regard as a dark orange/gold. This happens when you have very serious gold content (18 carat or more, approaching 24), and have used a certain amount of copper in the alloy. It is in fact not uncommon in high end Italian gold (at least from years past). The Italians are very serious about gold.

On the other hand, the orange color could come simply from overloading the gold with copper when alloying it -- more likely to happen on a musical instrument where the metal needs to be a bit more durable than the softer gold. But you could let people think it's the high-end stuff instead of the cheap bling. I do agree that the copper/silver combination -- unless carefully done (and predominantly silver) -- is a bit jarring. My Cerveny 781 tuba (which I no longer have) was about 90% copper alloy except for the ferrules, water keys, finger paddles, valve arms, mouthpiece receiver, and kranz. That model is just strikingly beautiful in appearance (http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/cbb781_4mr.php) and produces a wonderful tone, although the trade-off is that it's a dent magnet. I think that if it were perdominantly silver with copper trim, it would just look goofy.

[Himura]

That's an amazing tuba (and some amazing tuba playing)! Reminds me of the layers of color in an open flame.

One of the comments attached to the video lamented that only certain people can get away with having "different" instruments. I know there has to be some uniformity in a band, but it's hard to argue with the sentiment.

[ghmerrill]

That horn is even more impressive close-up in person. Really pretty.

Pat Sheridan is both a great tuba player and a great pedagogue. Take a look at some of his other stuff on Youtube -- like the master class, the "breathing gym" stuff, and the several "Tuba Clinic" videos.

[Sara Hood]

Himura and Ghmerrill - I am pretty sure that the silver and gold horns I have seen online are JinBaos. They look like, and have similar stats to, the Wessex Dolce and its sister-clones. Not only are the valve caps, stems, buttons, and water keys super gold, but so are the lower sections and outer legs of the tuning slides. In my opinion, Ick! I knew that higher karat weight gold becomes more "gold" in color and less yellow. What I did not know was that copper was blended in to produce the effect I was seeing. It sure looks orange-y to me.

But different strokes for different folks, as they say.

Personally, I find lacquered brass with nickel or chrome for strength in the ferules, tuning slides, and high wear and tear areas to be okay. As you said, it is easy to justify this color difference as being due to practical or "quality" considerations. It is not as glaring a contrast, or as blingy, as the horns I am talking about. But the solid silver color of a silver plate horn, or lacquered brass has a clean and streamlined appearance that I find suits my taste.

I would love to see the black and gold euphonium, or the copper and silver Cerveny tuba, in person. I am sure the pictures I have seen online do not do them justice.

Maybe what we need is an outrageous-looking horn pictures thread (joke/laugh).

One last thing before I sign off. Ghmerrill, please enlighten my ignorance. How do you determine the thread size?

Thank you all for your input. Any and all are welcome to chime in. Have a good night.
- Sara

[MarChant]

The only thing you need to be concerned about is the thread size (diameter and pitch).

Couldn't valve alignment be a possible issue?

[davewerden]

Couldn't valve alignment be a possible issue?

Yes, I should think so. But in most cases it might be manageable with the thickness of the felt/cord under the button.

[Sara Hood]

Valve alignment issue...?

Yes, I should think so. But in most cases it might be manageable with the thickness of the felt/cord under the button.

All I am looking to do is change the button part on the top that my finger tips come into contact with. As it is now, they are silver colored with a small piece of white plastic on top. I am thinking of changing to the traditional pearl or something else pretty/classy looking.

What do I need to know about, or do, to avoid valve alignment issues?
- Sara

[ghmerrill]

Okay, I'll provide some hints for determining the thread size. But honestly, the best approach (if you have a Wessex) is just to email Jonathan and ask him what it is. Tell him you want to add personalized valve buttons and I'm sure he'll just email back the thread size. That being said, I can also say that in my experience with my own Mack Brass (Jin Bao) euphonium, the various parts I've switched on it (valve guides, felts, valve springs) are "plug and play" with Yamaha parts. So my GUESS is that the valve threads are the same. But you never know for sure until you try. I'd be surprised if someone on this forum hasn't already switched buttons on a Wessex and knows what the size is.

But to answer the general question of how to measure thread sizes ...

The best technique is to get a thread size gauge. There are several varieties -- take your pick. Then use it to measure the diameter and pitch of the thread in question. I kind of like this kind, but now I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't actually own any thread gauges. I keep meaning to order some, and now will likely do it as soon as I'm done finishing this message. Several times a year I end up having to identify the size of some mystery screw or bolt -- often of vanishingly tiny size. Of course, if you face this problem on a continuing basis you need at least gauge sets (metric and inch), and possibly four (small and large in both metrick and inch), and that starts to get up into the $100 range to cover all the possibilities. Probably you wouldn't want to go in that direction, although it's good to develop new skills and hobbies, and you can never have enough tools.

So after cursing the fact that I once again didn't order thread gauges, I go to my nut and bolt collection and see if I can find something that fits my problem bolt/screw or nut. Probably you don't have a nut and bolt collection (?). If I succeed, I then go to the final step (see below).

If I can't find a fit in my (unfortunately extensive) nut and bolt collection, I then take the problematic specimen (in your case the valve stem or valve button) and proceed to the final step.

Final Step: Armed with either the matching item from my nut and bolt collection OR with the original problematic screw/bolt/nut, I then proceed to either (a) Lowes, (b) Home Depot, or (c) hardware store (there's still ONE decent one around here). and then either (1) see if it fits into any of their (somewhat limited) thread guides that they have in what my wife refers to as "the dreaded screw aisle", or (2) see if it fits any of screws/bolts/nuts in their offerings of specialty or loose fasteners (a good hardware store is better for this since the big box stores have most of their fasteners of this sort in packages. This USUALLY results in determining the size of the problematic thread -- IF it's not very small or very large.

A variation of the final step would be to go to a Fastenal store near you or to a machine shop, walk in and say "Hey, I wonder if you could just quickly tell me what size this thread is." They almost surely would, and without any charge.

In your case, the easiest approach would be to take one of the valve buttons off and then proceed to the Final Step. You can see that just asking someone who might know (like Wessex or someone who's done a similar replacement) would be a lot easier.

[bbocaner]

be aware that it's a little more complicated than just thread size, and using buttons other than the ones that are designed for your instrument can give you valve alignment issues. Not insurmountable, as you can fix this with shims or alternate felts, but it's something you need to be aware of.

[ghmerrill]

Yes, I should think so. But in most cases it might be manageable with the thickness of the felt/cord under the button.

Yeah, I forgot about this. And what this says for Sara is that it might be best for her to just take the horn to a repair tech who would determine the thread size, order (or tell her what to order) the valve caps, and then check the alignment after installing them. This is on the (perhaps unlikely?) chance that the replacement doesn't match the original in every respect.

Aligning piston valves isn't rocket science, but I'm sure it's more than Sara (and most people) would want to jump into. You really need to get (or make) a special tool to do it correctly -- or maybe use an endoscope (which I finally have now!). Otherwise, you're just guessing.

The alignment is certainly manageable one way or another, but the problem is how to tell whether it's aligned. That's the tricky part. Then there's the issue of having the right felt or shim to achieve the alignment. It's also possible for the 4th (compensating) valve to differ in this respect from the other three. I don't recall whether that's the case with my Mack Brass horn.

[Himura]

One other option:

If you like the shape and feel, but are looking for something a little more visually interesting, why not just decorate them yourself? Pretty valve buttons are nice, but pretty valve buttons that are 100% original might make the horn even more special.

[Sara Hood]

I plan on keeping the original valve buttons original and handy because there are times you want a horn to be as close to "stock" as possible. That being said, a little glamour can be nice, so I was thinking of adding a little something. While I enjoy being creative, I don't think I have the "juice" to do my own customization. I never imagined that I might need the services of my local brass tech to do something like this. But then, that is why I asked the question. The things that we could never imagine being a problem sometimes have a way of biting one in the butt.

So how about it folks? Anyone out there switch out the valve buttons on their Wessex or other JinBao stencil? Where did you get your new valve buttons?
- Sara