John Packer 274 - Thoughts?

[leisesturm]

I got a heads up from UPS this morning that my JP274 should be arriving between 9:30am and 1:30pm tomorrow! Mine also was ordered through Joe S. and like an earlier poster I spent a day believing I had missed the last horn in the warehouse and would have to wait for a new shipment to arrive from overseas, but that appears not to be the case. I don't know if there is any interest in a documented 'unboxing' but I will make sure that my phone is fully charged and will try to remember to take at least one photo of the event for posterity.

[Rodgeman]

I bought mine from Joe Sellmansberger at Midsouth Music also. I really enjoy it. Looking forward to your thoughts.

[leisesturm]

Well, she's here. I wasn't looking for flaws, I wasn't not looking for flaws, but I haven't found any flaws. Not one. I am well pleased. I can't (yet) play Euphonium but by using the 4th valve lock, one essentially has a (very) large bore French Horn in their hands. I was able to play various scales and tunes and satisfy myself that I've got a keeper.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Congratulations!! Looking forward to hear more of your thoughts and maybe even your recordings in the near future!

It definitely is a very decent horn!

[Ploppas]

Hello all,

I bought the JP 274 gold lacquer horn from DF music, in Chicago, and it just arrived at my house yesterday. I've done my research on the horn through this page and Algirdas Matonis' Youtube comparisons. I felt comfortable based off of these reviews and bought the horn last Monday. I've been playing on the school horn, a Yamaha YEP-321, for the past year, so I know it's too soon to comment about the horn, but this inconsistency is something that I need to bring to attention. The JP 274 I purchased, has huge intonation problem with the 2nd valve tuning slide. With the tuning slide already pushed all the way in, A3 (on top of the staff) is consistently running around 20-30 cents flat. A4, E3, and A2 are also running flat for me as well. I understand that air is one important factor since I'm making the switch from a small bore to a large bore, but I'm having to drastically change my embouchure to get it close to in tune.Now, everything else with the horn is spectacular for the price I paid for. The valves are nice and silent, flexibility is waaaaay easier than the 321, and it really does give the pseudo-Besson impression, but that 2nd valve tuning slide is the deal breaker.

I kinda expected for this to occur, but not to this extent. I plan on toughing it through during the weekend, but when Monday comes, I plan on reaching out to DF music to address this issue. Given that I'm still within the 10-day trial period, I can ask for a refund or an exchange, but what's preventing them from sending in another horn with defects. This is the first horn I've purchased, so I'm not too familiar with any repair shops around Atlanta that can work on shortening the 2nd valve slide, if I do decide to keep it. I've hit a wall here, so I wanted to reach out to you all and ask about any advice or tips going forward. Hope this info helps!

I'd love to hear about this! I bought a horn the other day and have the exact same issue. Did you do anything special about it?

[leisesturm]

I'd love to hear about this! I bought a horn the other day and have the exact same issue. Did you do anything special about it?

FWIW, I am new to Euphonium, but not to brass instruments. Tuning is only partly in the instrument. Tuner apps are a blessing and a curse. No one obsessed about 20 or 30 cents either way on a note until Smartphone tuners made everyone into intonation perfectionists. But some of us have better natural instincts for good intonation than others. I have a JP274 just like the other poster and I nail the smiley faces on every note, including those using the 2nd slide. While there are a lot of things that could make a particular horn ... defective. Having a longer 2nd slide than others of its model isn't one of them. If his horn has a too long 2nd slide, so does mine. I can play mine in tune. So can he. I hope he kept it. It's a lovely horn.

I'm surmising yours is not a JP274. Doesn't matter. You can play yours in tune as well. You just have to learn your horn. All horns have 'tuning quirks'. Even the $8K pro horns with triggers and whatnot have 'tuning quirks'. It doesn't stop players like Steven Mead, or David Childs, or our own Mr. Werden from doing the amazing things they do on horns they own or have just picked up to play test. You should always know another finger combination for every note above the 1st octave. The 'alternate fingering' just might be in better tune than the recommended or 'typical' fingering for that note on YOUR horn. And by your horn, I don't mean your particular instrument, but all horns of that particular make and model year.

[Ploppas]

FWIW, I am new to Euphonium, but not to brass instruments. Tuning is only partly in the instrument. Tuner apps are a blessing and a curse. No one obsessed about 20 or 30 cents either way on a note until Smartphone tuners made everyone into intonation perfectionists. But some of us have better natural instincts for good intonation than others. I have a JP274 just like the other poster and I nail the smiley faces on every note, including those using the 2nd slide. While there are a lot of things that could make a particular horn ... defective. Having a longer 2nd slide than others of its model isn't one of them. If his horn has a too long 2nd slide, so does mine. I can play mine in tune. So can he. I hope he kept it. It's a lovely horn.

I'm surmising yours is not a JP274. Doesn't matter. You can play yours in tune as well. You just have to learn your horn. All horns have 'tuning quirks'. Even the $8K pro horns with triggers and whatnot have 'tuning quirks'. It doesn't stop players like Steven Mead, or David Childs, or our own Mr. Werden from doing the amazing things they do on horns they own or have just picked up to play test. You should always know another finger combination for every note above the 1st octave. The 'alternate fingering' just might be in better tune than the recommended or 'typical' fingering for that note on YOUR horn. And by your horn, I don't mean your particular instrument, but all horns of that particular make and model year.

Sorry for being vague. The horn I bought was a JP274MKII. I agree that tuning is only part of the playing, and that it will only take you that far, since you're playing 3ds and 5ths for different chords all the time. It is interesting though that the same horn can be so different. Not many other people have experienced the same problem with the A, and some tuning guides recommend tuning to a concert A on the 2nd valve, or at least in between A and E. My E is also too flat, but lip bendable though.

[leisesturm]

Sorry for being vague. The horn I bought was a JP274MKII. I agree that tuning is only part of the playing, and that it will only take you that far, since you're playing 3ds and 5ths for different chords all the time. It is interesting though that the same horn can be so different. Not many other people have experienced the same problem with the A, and some tuning guides recommend tuning to a concert A on the 2nd valve, or at least in between A and E. My E is also too flat, but lip bendable though.

Yay, another JP274 in the house. We really should start a registry thread. "Concert A" (440hz) is the pitch given to tune all the strings and woodwinds. I'm pretty sure the tuning note for a Concert or Brass band will not be 'Concert A'. I wouldn't bet you money on that, but it just seems odd, very odd, that 2nd valve concert A (bass clef) would be used as a tuning note! Unless you are playing in an orchestra your first tuning note should be open Bb below concert middle C. And only after you are good and warmed up (and your instrument as well). After the main bugle is in tune you can go on to address the other valves in turn. Hmmm. It just occurred to me as I was writing 'warmed up' ... both you and the other poster got your horns after the start of warmer weather in most of the world. I wonder if your tuning issues would have existed under much colder conditions?!

[John Morgan]

....Hmmm. It just occurred to me as I was writing 'warmed up' ... both you and the other poster got your horns after the start of warmer weather in most of the world. I wonder if your tuning issues would have existed under much colder conditions?!

This is a particularly good point, that is, the first part about the weather being warm. My Adams E3 verges on being a "flat horn". I have my main tuning slide out just a wee bit. I do have to warm up and get the horn warm to get the best result. The warmer the horn, the more the pitch will go higher. The part about "wondering if the tuning issues would have existed under much colder conditions" - this would have made the issue worse, particularly if not warmed up. The rule for brass is a cold horn is flatter, a warm horn is sharper. Don't think of the metal contracting or expanding with the temperature, think of the air inside the horn. The metal temp and "size" has the opposite effect from the air inside, however, the metal has almost a negligible effect on pitch compared to the volume and temp of the air inside the horn.

[58mark]

I think if anyone is having problems playing their 274 in tune, they should have a more experienced player play on it and see if those same problems exist for the other person.

I bought my 274 for three reasons, the tone, the price, and the fact that it was/is one of the most in tune euphoniums I've ever played

[Davidus1]

I hadn't got around to posting a review on the horn. I've played tuba for over 40 years and left the Army in the 90s. I have about 15 years of professional playing experience and am very much an amateur now. I am a "good" player, not a "great" player but I do know what to look for on an instrument. I found a couple of notes that I had to account for. (2d valve "A" and "E" (bass clef) that were slightly flat but were very manageable. Every horn has something that you have to account for/adjust for/be aware of. I found the horn to play very well and considered overall intonation to be very good. Horns can vary from horn to horn as well. In full disclosure I did send it back as I have decided to go a different direction and up the $s a bit after I can actually play a physical example of a couple of horns I'm interested in. The 274 was well packed, the finish was flawless and comes in a very nice case. I own an open wrap tenor trombone from JP and it was also well packed and beautiful right out of the box. I've had it for over a year and its a great horn. I would have no reservation making a high recommendation for either the JP274 or a Mack/Wessex/ Euph. They are fine instruments. Some of us are old enough to remember not having so many choices at various price points. Its a great time to be a brass player! I definitely would recommend be fully "warmed up" before making any decisions about the intonation. I find it best to play an etude and "stop" on a certain note then check the tuner. Also, you need to fill the horn to fully evaluate. Dynamics are important as well. If you are overblowing/underblowing that will give a false reading. I wish you the best with your new horns!

[guidocorona]

Hello Davidus1, which eupho did you opt for instead of keeping JP274?

Regards, Guido

[Davidus1]

Hello Davidus1, which eupho did you opt for instead of keeping JP274?

Regards, Guido

I haven't yet. Not until I can do a play test. Wanting to try both the Wessex Sinfonico and also a Yamaha NEO.

[Ploppas]

I'd love for a more experienced player to try it out, but sadly noone feels very keen on doing that for the moment, all bout Corona and all that.

I don't think the temperature outdoors/indoors should be affecting the horn right now. Summers in Sweden aren't that great, so the weather is rather normal for the moment (20-22 degrees Celsius). The warming up of the horn does wonders, though. A lot of warming up before band practice, that is.